Speaker 1 (00:00:00) - Welcome to Uncopyable Women in Sales. If you're looking for actionable insights and real world tools to turbocharge your sales starting tomorrow, well, you're in the right place. Your host, Kay Miller, earned the affectionate nickname Muffler Mama when she sold more automotive mufflers than anyone else in the world. In this podcast, Kay will talk to another superstar women in Sales as they reveal uncopyable strategies you can use to rack up more leads, snag dream clients and take your sales numbers through the roof. Stay tuned and get ready to make more sales. And how about this? More money.
Speaker 2 (00:00:42) - I'm thrilled to chat with today's guest, Dr. Jane Sojka. Jane earned her doctorate in marketing from Washington State University, studying gender differences in salespeople. She teaches at the University of Cincinnati, where she developed a groundbreaking women in sales class, as well as a professional sales minor. I got to know Jane when I watched her excellent TEDx talk. Empowering Women benefits everyone. Hello, Jane. Hello, Kate. Good to see you.
Speaker 2 (00:01:15) - And I heard in another podcast that it's okay to call you Jane and not Dr. Sojka Yes, it is. And especially with a name like Soak, Jane makes it so much easier. Absolutely. And since we're fellow Cougs, I feel like I already know you. I know it. That is so cool. It is such a coincidence. This is going to be super casual. And you teach now at the University of Cincinnati. But when I saw your bio and I saw that you went to Washington State University, I couldn't believe it. What happened? Oh, my. That's a long story. So, so long story short. Ended up in Lewiston, Idaho. I had three children under the age of five. Wow. I knew I wanted. I had my MBA already knew I wanted the PhD, and Washington State presented that opportunity. So that's how I got there. And it was a it was a great experience. I had great faculty members, great experience, Good. You know what? I have a little joke that I use sometimes and I say I don't at this point.
Speaker 2 (00:02:30) - I don't like to say I'm a cougar because people might get the wrong idea. You're absolutely right. I've made the cat rounds because I was a cougar. And then I went to Ohio University Bobcats, and now I'm at the University of Cincinnati Bearcats. Oh, my God. Just say I'm a cat. I'm likely to get confused which cat I am at which time I'm a cat. That's so funny. Yeah, that's. You've got some consistency there. I do want to touch on your impressive bio and what you're doing, but I will include the full bio with the podcast episode. But like we said, you got your doctorate from Washington State University. Mine was just a bachelor, by the way, and you studied gender differences in salespeople, which is so perfect for this, this podcast which focuses on women. And then you developed a women in sales class and I have listened to some of your podcasts. I listened to your Ted talk and you've made so many great observations about the differences and what women need to focus on, especially when I want you to be the one talking about this, but the resilience and the confidence and empowering women to negotiate.
Speaker 2 (00:03:56) - Let's just hear a little bit about what you can remind or inform our listeners about what we as women need to focus on. Wow. Okay. We don't have three hours here. We don't have 30 minutes. Yes. So let's focus it down. Just let me do just a brief little history. When I started teaching at University of Cincinnati, basically started their sales center, their sales program, their sales minor, because you and I both know sales is a great opportunity and it's a really good opportunity for women and men. Okay. For career options, for financial security, everything. Um, I was teaching large sections of Intro to marketing, okay? And recruiting students. And I would recruit women and say, Do you like my classes? Take my sales class. They would not do it. And even the ones who were in the class who were my best students, okay. And I would say you really have to apply for this top sales position. No, I'm not ready. But you need to be on our varsity sales team.
Speaker 2 (00:05:03) - We compete against other sales programs across the country. Oh, no, no. I need more courses. I'm going like, wait, I'm the professor here. I am telling you, you're good. And I could tell them they were good till I was blue in the face and it was not working. So I realized, Houston, we've got a problem. It's not working. What we are doing is not working. I'd have a class of 30 students, 30 men, three women, and the women would sit their huddle down, not participating, and yet they were the best. I have a just a question. When did you start teaching? What year was this that you started? This was 2015, and I'd actually had the idea probably ten years ago, and it came from a student. Okay, my students are the best. At another school when I was teaching sales and we would break up in small groups and one of my small groups, truly by accident or divine intervention, was all women.
Speaker 2 (00:06:01) - And I had never. It just happened that way because there's not that many women there. And the women and I had so much fun. And one of them said, Wouldn't it be cool if we had a sales class for women? And the light bulb went off, I knew I would be able to do it there. But Cincinnati opened the door. I had a woman department head and I said, I've got this crazy idea. And she's like, It's not crazy at all. Because meanwhile, recruiters are coming, right? And they want women and can't get women. Go ahead. Did you have your. Oh, I just was going to say, I heard in one of your podcasts that you said she was super supportive. And I love that because I've been in sales for 30 some years. And in the beginning I think women were sometimes our worst enemy. Have you noticed that? And I think that's really changing. That's one of the reasons I'm even doing this podcast to bring other women up.
Speaker 2 (00:06:57) - So I think that's great. I just wanted to throw that in. Okay. Don't want to get sidetracked. Okay, But you started it. Okay. So I'm glad. Want to go on that little tangent I've taken what I've taught women in sales and taken into athletics. Okay, Building women athlete is called an inspire equip connect program. We're very to launch it. The idea is being able to launch it to other schools available upon request. We're not quite there yet, but we're almost there. And it was developed once again by former women and sales students. And they said, we have teammates, we have other student leaders who need this information. I said, Great, we can take out the sales pieces and we can put the empowerment pieces in there. What do you want to start with? Her success does not threaten mine. It was women helping women. Unfortunately, sometimes things have not changed. Women undercutting women. However, I give women the tools to support women. And once you start teaching each other and realizing her success does not threaten mine, and that's the request, I add.
Speaker 2 (00:08:03) - We're all on our own path. And the fact that I can say that by memory. K tells you how many times I've had to say it to myself because I'm learning. I am learning too. So you are exactly right. That's another key component of this class. Okay, so we all band together. Okay, Now, where was I, 1915, 1915, 19? 2015. I'm getting some we're losing some decades here. Happens. It's fun to talk to you. And this is my favorite topic. The head of my department was very enthusiastic. We happen to have a woman associate dean and I'm proud to say she is now our dean. Only 8% of women are 8% of the College of Business. Deans in the world are female, and we have one of them. She was the associate dean. I said, I have this wacko idea. She's not crazy at all. I said, Can we teach a course? Women? Of course I can teach a course for women. And Procter and Gamble.
Speaker 2 (00:09:01) - Thought, Yeah, man, if we can find a way to attract women into sales. It's a good thing. It's a win win for everyone. So when I started the class, really all I knew was that women sold differently than men. The women were getting really turned off by the pushy, you know? And I love my men, okay? And I love my men, but they're so pushy and so they were like, Oh, that's not the way I do it, and I don't want to be like that. So truly, that's what I started. And then from that, the course just keeps building and building the information, and what I teach keeps building. So, yeah, and I want you to touch on some of those things that you do teach the women that we all need to be aware of. I think probably the first thing and this came up in a rather well known article, women are not risk takers. And I'm I'm right up there. I'm all about security.
Speaker 2 (00:09:59) - You had also with women spending money and retirement and everything and sales are scary. You know that. In marketing. You can not and love brand managers too, but you behind your team. Okay. You've got a team in sales. You're the one asking for the sale. And that is it's scary. I can't deny that. Also, the compensation is scary. What happens is so probably the first thing I needed to do was get women over their fear of failure. Okay. And I call it fear of failure. Some people, it's very closely aligned and related cousins with the imposter syndrome. Okay, What happens if I'm not good enough? What happens if they figure out I don't have all the answers, you know, hit. None of us have all the answers. What happens if I make a mistake? Oh, what happened? So this kind of thing, that fear of failure. So if I dig in that a little bit, what what happens when we fail? Okay. And I'm going to say I'm using the term failure, but it really means make a mistake.
Speaker 2 (00:11:03) - I say something stupid in a meeting. Happens to me all the time. I don't say something. I wish I would have said that. I make a miscalculation that also happens to me all the time. My math was wrong. So it can be little mistakes. It also can be, I lost my job, I lost my spouse, I lost my income. I lost my house. Okay. That's not where you practice. So you practice in the little things. So what happens when we fail? The research shows women tend to ruminate about it more than men. And that is, we play it over and over again. Okay, now you think about that. That's really not real bright because, like, the ending is not going to change by playing it over and over again. But we replay it in our heads all the time. And I'm also going to say the research indicates that women ruminate more than men. My experience is that men do their share of ruminating, too. They may not admit it, but they need it.
Speaker 2 (00:12:02) - And on another side note. I have come to to every everything I teach in my women in sales class, I now teach to my men as well, because I learned that they needed it too. But I learned it from teaching women. So we ruminate about it. And then what we did, we beat ourselves up. Oh, Jim, you're so stupid. How could you do something so stupid? Everybody is, you know, laughing at you. No. Sound familiar? Yes. And this is all going on in our heads, our little heads. Yeah, exactly. And it's not helping us. No wonder we don't want to take. Oh, I'm not going to apply for that job. I probably won't get it, so I'm not going to apply that, you know? Now, this is what something men do never stops Men. Okay. They I think men have 57% of the criteria. They apply women 100%. How do we overcome that as women? I do believe the key, because perfectionism is a what I call a self limiting behavior.
Speaker 2 (00:13:00) - Okay. Why do we why are women and once again, the research says women have the more perfectionistic tendencies than men. I've seen it a lot in my men, too. They just don't admit it. Perfectionism is a self limiting behavior. And what we think and this is misguided thoughts. If I'm perfect, I'm not going to fail. So rather than deal with, you know what, I might fail and live through it, which is resilience, we say, okay, I am going to be perfect and I'm only going to do things that I can be perfect in, and I'm only going to take courses that I can get an A in, okay, even though I'm going to take this course. And so it's a self limiting behavior to protect us. Okay. And working on a book now and I've got there's about there's 4 or 5 self-limiting behaviors. But you brought up perfectionism. I'll talk about that. What I learned from teaching and researchers have their laboratories, educators have our classrooms. And it was a pinching grant.
Speaker 2 (00:14:04) - So I experimented. I just experimented. It was great. Resilience is the antidote to fear of failure. Okay? Because you don't make friends with fear. No. Or friends with no. Oh, I learned so much when I fail. Maybe I did. But darn it all, it hurts. Okay? It hurts. I don't want to feel. I don't like that. But so what I teach my students is failure isn't fatal. Resilience is the ability to bounce back quickly after.
Speaker 1 (00:14:34) - Today's podcast is sponsored by the acclaimed book Unopyable Sales Secrets- How to Create an Unfair Advantage and Outsell Your Competition by Kay Miller. Put the secrets in this book to work and you'll make more sales, grow your network and become a top earner. See the show notes or go to Amazon.com and search forUncopyable sales secrets to order the book. Right now, if.
Speaker 2 (00:14:58) - You think about it, when we were all learning to ride bicycles, you fall off. What did you do? You got back on and you got back on.
Speaker 2 (00:15:05) - And you again and again. And again and again. And you learn how to ride a bike. We lost that ability. And instead with women, what happens when you get turned down? In fact, this is another Harvard Business Review article. A woman turned down from a leadership position is 40% less likely to apply again. Wow. And guilty as charged. I applied for that. I didn't get well. I'm never doing that again. Remember that you told a story about that and you had to overcome that yourself. So you're a perfect test tube example, though. One of my favorite quotations. This is from Elizabeth Lesser, and it's so true. You teach that which you need to learn. My students have taught me so much and sometimes I'm leading them. Sometimes I think they're leading me. And sometimes a lot of times we're walking down the path together. Very wise. What I focus on early on in the class before I get to talking like, how do you network, how do you spend? So I don't even talk about that for probably eight weeks into the course.
Speaker 2 (00:16:16) - It is resilience. I want you to get practice failing. So I have I was going to call it a failure assignment, and that was too dark, so little too far there. I'm too far. So I call it some resilience assignment. But I give the students eight strategies for reframing failure. Okay. And let me give you a real simple one. Here's one. It's one of my favorites, but it's a really easy one. Failure is an event, not a person. I love that. I love that. Think about what happens once again. What happens when we fail? Oh, my goodness. I can't believe I got a B And usually it's a B on that test. I am so stupid. I'm never going to pass this course. I'm never going to graduate from college. I want to live in another. No, no, no. Reframe that to. Failure is an event, not a person. You know what I didn't do as well on the exam as I would have liked.
Speaker 2 (00:17:13) - I am still smart, I am still a good marketing student. I still am going to have a good career. I'm friendly, I'm outgoing, I'm generous. I am a good person. Okay, now let's start setting for the next test. I love that I'm not a failure. I had a bump in the road. Above road? Yeah. Failure is an event, not a person. And so I give them eight different strategies. Okay. And I tell them another thing I've done in the class is changed my analogies. Okay? I used to say a toolbox, and this comes from Elizabeth Lesser. Also, I don't use a toolbox. You don't have to think twice about a wrench, and I can figure it out. My thing? Yeah, I think so. I changed the analogies to things that women relate to, and it's also really good for men because then they think, Oh, yeah, a little different. We're going dress shopping. That's something we can all relate to. And so these eight strategies, what works for me, what looks good on me, may not look good on you.
Speaker 2 (00:18:21) - Oh, wow, That looks so cool on the hanger. You put it on and you're like, Oh, no, it's not me at all. We've all been there. Exactly. And so you try these. And also what I would pick out for a wedding is not what I would pick out for a beach party. So the students get to try these different styles on and these different ways of strategies for dealing with failure on and which ones do they need to work on, which ones work the best for them. And the other thing that I've learned about resilience and confidence. You don't do it by one one assignment, okay? You don't do anything right the first time. Okay. When we go back to the bicycle example, most of us did not just go flying off immediately. You learn by failure. You know, you learned so much when things go wrong, when things go right and you don't even have to think about it. It's not as big of a lesson. And I always say, you're not as proud of the things that you accomplish with no effort.
Speaker 2 (00:19:23) - You don't feel that pride nearly as much as you do when you say, okay, I failed, now I go back. I do it again because getting through failure is there's no way around it. You just have to do it right? Absolutely. And if you are if you're so afraid of failing, you use the self limiting behaviors like perfectionism, people pleasing control. You're going to kill yourself and you're gonna make everyone around you miserable. You have to practice. I'm going to say practice, failing, practice, getting over the failure quickly. So when I started the class, I thought, let's do eight times, okay? Because I want to get them used to fail. Okay. Got up quickly. This okay. Failed yet got up quickly, failed again. I didn't need eight times. Five times they write five. They have five papers where they. Express or failure. Here's what happened. Here's the strategy I used and then reflect. Did I get over it quickly? And they move up at five times and then by the end of the course.
Speaker 2 (00:20:31) - Is what happens if a buyer tells you. No, I go on to the next one. Yes, that's exactly right. Right. And I know you talk about resilience. When I'm thinking about what can the listener learn about this? Yes. Not failure is an event, not a person. You need to be resilient. I'd like to touch a little bit on negotiation and what you said about asking for what you want, because really making a sale is often asking for what you want, asking for the order. Absolutely. And as you know from my Ted Talk, I love this. I love hate the statistic, but it's a punch to the gut every time. And that is how many people negotiate their first job. And I think if I've got the numbers, I think it's 57% men, 7% women. We are afraid to ask for what we want. And once again. Why? Why are we afraid? And it's a fun discussion with women of all ages. And hey, you would not be surprised.
Speaker 2 (00:21:36) - I do that workshop a lot with college students, women in business, women of all ages, and the answers are the same. I might get told no. Once again, that's a lack of resilience for you. What happens if you get told No, probably nothing. And you just keep running going? No, no, no. I've talked to very experienced salespeople, women and men. You know, that's hard. That's hard. And so how do you deal with that? How do you recommend that someone deals with that? Once again, I think it comes down to resilience because you're going to get told, no, you are going to fail if you're in life, but you may use the self-limiting behaviors, but you're going to fail eventually. And so, you know, change the tape failure as an event, not a person see failure as courage. That's Brené Brown's whole thing. So before my students and I talk about asking for what you want, I get them really comfortable with no, with failing.
Speaker 2 (00:22:36) - Because what's the worst that can happen? You asked for a raise. You don't get it. What's the worst can happen? They say no, right? And they know you're on. You're on the you're on the radar screen. So I would maintain women don't ask because we're afraid we might get told no, we're afraid we might do it wrong. We don't have the skills. There are we're afraid. What will people think? Oh, my goodness, I'm greedy. Excuse me. The men are asking. We. We need to ask. And when one of us wins, we all win, right? Like you said, they might say no. They might say yes. And you'll never know if they are going to say yes if you don't ask. Absolutely. And so another assignment I borrowed this from Harvard Business School Entrepreneurship. They take it to a much greater extreme. But my students have to ask for something five times in person. I don't care if they get it or not, but they have to get comfortable with being told no.
Speaker 2 (00:23:35) - And what they learn is they are shocked at what they get when they get asked. And these are small asks, you go through Panera, you order your salad, they say that'll be $15. And you say, could I have that for free? And they're going to say, no, Buffett's in the credit card and that's check Mark, you did that one. This you go up to the retail this I like this blouse but it's a little pricey. Do you have any coupons? You never know. You know what? That is so funny that you said that because I ordered something online recently. I'm trying to think, Oh, I know what it was. It was a pair of shoes because my friend's daughter is getting married in New York and it's going to be a formal wedding. So I'm a little intimidated. And I ordered a pair of shoes and I just looked online to see are there any coupons? And sure enough, there was a coupon code 10% off and I got the 10% off.
Speaker 2 (00:24:32) - So exploring what might be possible in life and of course, in sales, hey, you never know what you might get out of that. Absolutely. And the students are shocked. And now and I make them do it. I make them do it in person. Okay. Because they're quite comfortable. They can run circles around me online, but it's face to face. Ask a stranger, could I substitute broccoli for the. French fries, even though it's not on your menu. Ask. You can have the table by the window. Asked. They are shocked at what they get. And it's great practice because then when we go in to ask for salary or vacation or whatever, what's the worst that can happen? They say, or asking for the order, giving your recommendation on what? Here's what I believe that is best for you. They might not agree or they might choose the competition for some reason. Another thing I believe in is don't take it personally because it isn't always about you. It might just be the situation.
Speaker 2 (00:25:46) - You know what? That's one of my resilient strategies. I call it be patient. Okay. But the whole idea behind that, and especially with I have students applying for jobs and you and I both know it's a crap. It just creates no fun. It's no fun and you don't know. And so in some cases, you did a great interview. They loved you. It was great. And then the boss's nephew applied for a job. There's nothing you can do about that and you'll probably never know it. So be patient and realize it's a lot of things are out of our control. Yes, exactly right. And determination. Having determination to me is huge because you listen to a lot of sales trainers and they have certain lines that you should use and certain methods. And I think if you're really determined and also have the customer's interest at heart, then that comes through more than saying something perfect. Do you agree with that? Oh, I could not agree more. And it's another reason. And in fact, this is the thesis of my dissertation or the basis of my dissertation, why women are so good in sales, because we are naturally empathetic.
Speaker 2 (00:27:05) - And if I say it once in class, I say it 50 times. Who's the most important person in the room? Hit? It is not you. It is the other person. Women tend to be good at building relationships and listening. My students who are the introverts are like, Oh, you know, I mean, I'm in this class, but I'm scared to death and I'm really because I'm not out killing. You won't make money hand over fist because you're a good listener. Exactly. And I have some examples in my book that salespeople one of the things that we do the most is we talk too much, we talk and we talk about our company and the product and the history and all this boring stuff that the customer doesn't care about. Like you said, empathy and listening and really getting to the bottom of what the customer, what's important to them, and maybe even introducing a solution that they haven't thought of. Like you said, those are some skills that I think women really have and are good at.
Speaker 2 (00:28:12) - Absolutely. And that that's borne out in industry. That an industry. So what do you think that the listener here or the viewer of this podcast, because we're getting to the end already, should take away as their most important things that they need to be aware of and work on. Confidence is a teachable skill. Okay. You don't teach it to your children. I had three daughters, and I could tell them until I'm blue in the face. You're good. You can do this. It doesn't work. It's an internal job. They need confidence. Belief in your abilities. They need to have. They need to believe I can do this. And as a parent, as a sales manager and as an individual, set up a series of wins that's like a ladder. Okay. So my students, you know, they have to do a recorded sales role play at the end of the semester. That's like a that's like an oral exam. If I told them that at the beginning of the semester, they'd all drop the course.
Speaker 2 (00:29:19) - Okay. But at the beginning. Okay. I want you to talk to somebody across the room you don't know and find out what we have in common. Well, you know, nobody died. And you met somebody new. Okay, Now I want you to go to a sales career fair where you're talking to salespeople who can talk to a brick wall. Okay. But the students don't know that they're scared to death. I want you to talk to three people, find what did you learn? And they come back. Oh, I did it. Yes, you did. And nobody died. Now I want you to go across campus and start conversations with strangers while you're waiting in line at Starbucks. What do you know? Now you're going to talk to a customer, find out what their needs are, and set another appointment to show your product. And so it's a series of small wins where you're building, Oh, I did that. Yeah. This is not new. You've done this before. We're just raising the bar a little bit.
Speaker 2 (00:30:13) - And it reminds me for every negative that you hear, just even in a relationship for every negative with your kids, they remember those and they don't hear the positives. I think we all remember the negatives. Yes. Think really focusing on those wins and using those to build your confidence is huge. Absolutely. And I wish I would have known it when I was when my kids were younger. But it and it really does work because I can see the difference. And in fact, we did the research. We took the beginning of the class at the end of the class and at the end of the class, the women, the resilience they were. We closed the gender gap. My women are as resilient as the men. And that's great because I don't want the men. I want the men to stay up there. Okay, so that was good. Fear of failure decreased, statistically significant. And what was interesting, the women actually had more confidence in their ability to sell than the men did. Interesting.
Speaker 2 (00:31:12) - And I've heard you say you're not a man basher. You love your men and you include them. You're very respectful and impressed of the brave men that come to this class. But it's it sounds so rewarding to see that difference in how the women respond just even over a semester. Absolutely. And when I ask the men, even in my mixed classes, would you rather be on a team with a bunch of wimps who are afraid? Or would you rather be on a team with people who will give you ideas, who aren't afraid to ask questions? Who will stand up for the company? What would you rather be with? And the answer is always the strong ones. So everything I teach, nothing hurts other people. It empowers the individual. And that makes us all better. And I think even as a customer, you want someone who's confident in their solution. You want somebody who's excited and can really spread that enthusiasm to the customer. Enthusiasm, enthusiasm, absolutely enthusiasm. I knew what you meant.
Speaker 2 (00:32:21) - I knew what you meant. Absolutely. Excitement is contagious. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. I love all the things that you say, the confidence, the resilience, the not taking failure personally and asking for what you want, which, like you said, sometimes is harder for women. But really those things are really keys to being successful in sales. I think you've just nailed a lot of this and I have listened to quite a few of your podcasts, your Ted Talk. They're all very powerful in reinforcing those skills and habits and beliefs that will help us succeed as women. More proof. Thank you very much. And thank you for having me on your show. It's it has been delightful talking with you. And I, too. I've loved your book. I've loved it. It's in my office for my students to see. And we will just keep on changing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:33:26) - Thanks for listening to this episode of Coffee about women in Sales, your source for secrets you can use to make more sales.
Speaker 1 (00:33:34) - Check the show notes for links and contact information and if you enjoyed the podcast, please spread the word by subscribing, sharing and leaving a five star review. You can always learn more by going to uncomfortable sales compost cast. Until next time, go out and supercharge your sales like a true rock star.
