Episode 146 | Lieutenant General Karen Gibson, Part 2: Courage, Hard Work and Purpose

This episode is Part Two of my conversation with Lieutenant General Karen Gibson, one of the most accomplished and down-to-earth leaders I've ever interviewed. After a distinguished 30-year military career, Karen became only the second woman to serve as Sergeant at Arms for the U.S. Senate.

In this episode, we dive deeper into Karen’s motivations—what drove her wasn’t a hunger for promotion, but a burning desire to contribute and take on the toughest challenges. She shares why she once cried—not from overwhelm, but from being assigned a job that felt too easy. We also explore what ambition means for women, how to earn respect in male-dominated environments, and how she and her husband navigated dual military careers and parenting.

Karen’s honesty, humility, and wisdom shine through every story, from skiing with a ruck in Alaska to stepping into a high-pressure role at the Capitol. Her journey is a masterclass in leadership, grit, and purpose.

If you’ve ever doubted your ambition, or struggled with balancing family and a demanding career, this conversation will inspire and empower you.

🎧 Tune in—and don’t miss the bonus episode next!

About Karen Gibson:

Karen Gibson is a former three-star Army general and combat veteran who served over 33 years in the U.S. Army, culminating her career as Deputy Director of National Intelligence. In 2021, following the January 6th attack on the Capitol, she was appointed Senate Sergeant at Arms—becoming one of only 42 people in U.S. history to hold that position, and only the second woman. Karen has led intelligence operations across the globe, from Central Command to the coalition that dismantled ISIS’s caliphate. Today, she’s a keynote speaker and national security consultant, sharing hard-earned leadership lessons from the battlefield to the Capitol. 

Connect with Karen: 

LinkedIn

For Speaking inquiries, contact  KHGibsonGroup_ea@nextcoc.com.

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Transcript

 This episode is part two of my interview with Lieutenant General Karen Gibson. After rising through the ranks in her 30 year military career, Karen was appointed sergeant at arms for the US Senate, only the second woman to hold that position. Karen's story is riveting from her incredible work ethic to her sense of purpose.

Karen is one of a kind. Now, as I kicked off this interview, I asked Karen to clarify something that surprised me in the first episode. She mentioned that once she'd been brought to tears by something that happened during her military career, was it because things were so tough? Um, no, quite the opposite.

Please enjoy part two of our inspiring and entertaining conversation.

Lot of advice.

I just ways, and the,               when you said you were crying, I might have misinterpreted that ' no, I was crying.  why did you cry?

Because I was in a boring job. Oh, boring job. See I thought you were crying because you were, over your head or something, but then you No, I was in a boring job. I never cried about it. No, I was in a boring job. Job. I wanted a hard job. They gave me an easy one and I didn't appreciate it.

Now, now I would have more appreciation for hey, I could. It could take a long lunch, but at the time I, I was burning with this ambition and I didn't want a boring job. Yeah. Burning with ambition but it wasn't, that sounds to me burning with ambition has negative connotations.

Yeah. It sounds like someone who's gonna walk on others who's gonna have, who has sharp elbows, who just wants to get promoted. I was burning to do things, I was burning to make contributions. I was burning to be at the center of the action, not with the intent of getting promoted. And I think that's, an answer to your question about how did you get promoted?

And I said, take the hard jobs and do them well. There's another aphorism if you take care of the little things, the big things, take care of themselves. And I. I just found that if I took a hard job, put my nose to the ground grindstone, just like I, I loved that job and I just dedicated myself to it.

And then I got promoted. I wasn't taking the hard job so I would get promoted. I was taking the hard job because I wanted the hard job, if that makes sense. It totally does. It makes sense. I hope we can recreate that for the interview. 'cause that's it's just gonna be low key, however it goes.

But you get it that a lot of women are not as confident as you. They don't, maybe not ambitious as you, or maybe they see ambitious in a different light than the one you described. So that's what I would talk to. Okay. And, perhaps we can also I'll try to remember to bring this in.

I had growing confidence my time in the military. And I came to be a big believer in my own abilities to, be the. Premier Intel officer. I have a lot of weaknesses. There are some jobs I would be bad at. I tended to chase the ones I would be good at when I showed up at the Capitol.

56 years old. I've been a three star general. I felt like a second lieutenant. Again, I was, I had a lot of, I was very nervous about being in charge. It was just, it was these flashbacks to the young girl in Alaska of being in charge of these men with more experience than I have. How are they going to respect me?

So perhaps that will come out too. we were talking about ambition and ambition in a different light. Because I'm asking how can you be so driven? And you said the part that is driving you is not how, you, tell me how you phrased it.

I said I was burning with ambition and I don't like to say that because it in my mind has negative connotations. Particularly I come very much from a background of teamwork. You know that it's not about me, it's about us. And you say burning with ambition. That sounds like someone who will do anything to get promoted, sharp elbows, step over others, make other people look bad.

I was burning with an ambition to contribute. I was burning with an ambition to take hard jobs. I was burning with an ambition to be part of the solution. And I used the aphorism take the hard jobs and do them well. I took the hard jobs, not because that's what was gonna get me promoted. Even though that is what got me promoted, I took the hard jobs because I wanted the hard jobs.

I wanted to do that hard job. I remember as a major, during a big exercise in Korea, and I had an important support role, and this woman came in and she was at the center of the action, the chief intel officer that would put all the, that she and her team would put together what was really happening and determine what the enemy was about to do.

We were all about supporting them and as she talked, I thought, oh my God, that's the job I want. And that's the job I went to next. And there were, I had peers who were afraid to take that kind of job because you were really in the hot seat. But that's what I wanted. I wanted the hot seat, and again, a subtle distinction, but I wanted those hard jobs, not because it would get me promoted, even though that is what got me promoted.

I wanted those hard jobs. Because I wanted that hard job. I wanted to do that hard job. I just found it this magnetic attraction, it sounded like to me, I would interpret that as you wanted something that would demand the very best from you, from yourself. That's a great way to put it. That's a great way to put it.

I, sometimes I felt like a slacker in college. I won't tell you about, 'cause my parents might be listening, so we don't wanna talk about my lack of studying in college. Yeah. In fact I've since in the last couple years I've been honored with all these things at my alma mater and I always wanna say, did you look at my transcript?

Are you sure about this? But anyway, so I was sometimes a slacker and and the army really, who knows what would've happened if I hadn't gone in the army. The army really lit that fire and as I said, it just challenged every facet of my being. And each time you did well at something. It was like someone walking into the gym and pushing the button that makes the treadmill go faster or changes the elevation. They just gave you harder and harder things to do. And, like advancing levels in a video game. I don't know, I just, I, that really drove me.

Yeah. Interesting. I have a little analogy that popped into my mind and that is that a couple years ago I started taking piano lessons and, at an advanced age. That's great. I'm loving it. And maybe in reference to the fact that you were a slacker, if I'd had to take piano lessons when I was a kid, I would've hated it.

But now I'm all into the theory and, I'm not a math person like you, but it's really interesting. But the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. And I told my teacher, grace this, and I. Who is an 80-year-old and a 37-year-old body. Grace, if you're listening, I love her. But she said she feels that way too.

There's just so much more, there's so many more challenges ahead. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I think the day, it's what do they say when a shark stops swimming, it dies or something. I just, if life had no challenges, I think it would have very limited satisfaction. Yes. Very little meaning.

Yes. We also, I wanna talk about motherhood because you are a parent, and as I mentioned, I just talked with someone, Megan Tenal, she's the CEO of The Association of Equipment Manufacturers. And she also, she has four girls and she started as an intern and now she's CEO, first woman.

Wow. Huge association. She talked about what she had to do to balance motherhood, and she, I think, as I recall now, she also said, I don't know that I can call it balancing. Yeah. And she said, and I can't say that my journey was for anyone else, and her husband didn't work. So obviously, somebody has to take care of kids.

So talk to women, talk to us about how that is too. The word isn't balanced to manage or whatever. Yeah, it's hard. It's so my husband and I were what we call dual military. We were both in the army for the first nine years of our marriage, and it was important each year to know who was, as we called it, the main effort and who is the supporting effort.

We were fortunate in that we don't, we didn't both have killer jobs simultaneously. We would take turns so that it was clear any given year, because many at that age, at that point in your career, many of your military positions or for 12, 18, 24 months, and then you take a different job. Who, whose job had priority, who really needed to perform.

And then who, if, were instead of arm wrestling, who would be the principal person for picking up the children at daycare? And after about those nine years he's also coincidentally, nine years older than me, realized that he was prob he was unlikely to be promoted again and he chose to retire.

He was retirement eligible, retire rather than continue to work at the same rank and stayed home and took care of the kids. So I think one of the key things I advise women when they ask these questions is it's really critical to have the right partner someone who's willing to be supportive. And there were certainly times when my children, expressed a strong desire to, I wish you stayed home, right?

I wanna stay home, mom. And I'd say, but you have a loving. Parent who picks you up every day, takes you to all your sports, shops for all these things. For you, it just doesn't happen to be your mom, which is not the norm. A little, a little more common than it used to be, but it, yeah.

You it's very d you just really can't have it all. It's very difficult, I would say. One other thing, I've mentored men and women throughout my career, and men never ask me when they should have children. Women often ask me when to time having children, and my advice there is just to have children because, assuming you're financially stable and have a good partner or, but might work around.

And then build your job around that because eventually you will. Not be working anymore, ideally, and or not in that same capacity, but you will always have a family. And, if you wanna put your family first, have a family and then work your job around those requirements we didn't plan on when we were gonna have kids.

And it, I just I adore them both and my granddaughters. And I think it's, if you want to have a family and then figure out what your work's gonna look like. It is interesting. So many things that you are talking about, thinking through other people are thinking through other women because Yeah, if it's flipped, if it's the man who's going off and, serving and the woman at home, it's, as you said, it's changing, but that's still the stereotype.

That I think is mostly true. So how do your kids, now that they're grown, how do they feel about how they were raised in that experience? They loved living overseas and I think they enjoyed very much being part of a military community. They still wish that I had, been there more, particularly during the deployments.

That was very difficult. And yeah, that's, but you can't undo that. Yeah. And as you said, you really can't have it all right. So we have one daughter, and at one point she's our only daughter, and I think she was 10. She said, mom, I really want a brother or sister or a dog. And I'm like, getting a dog. Yeah. Yeah, it isn't. Yeah, you can't have some, all of the things, but it sounds like it worked out really well. Yeah. And your kids turned out great and now you're living back in Montana and loving life. Yeah. So let's talk though about some of the challenges that you must have faced being a woman in such a male dominated industry.

Yeah. I don't know if you have any particular stories or just Sure. What men in general thought of you. Yes, go ahead. I have lots of stories. Of course. I think we all do. I tell folks, I say I exceeded expectations from the very beginning because nobody expected anything from me. I was a girl in the army in the eighties.

People had no expectation that I would be able to perform well and in particular, and a light infantry division in Alaska, which was a very harsh physical environment. We would go to the field and sleep on the ground at 50 below. Everyone was issued a pair of skis and a set of snows shoes.

And we were issued these rubber cleats you had put on the bottom of your running shoes so that you could jog in formation in the ice. It was just, it was, but I loved it. I loved it, but it was very demanding and and there were very few women in my company of 120. There were two other women and both sergeants and across Fort Richardson, Alaska, where I was, all the female officers could eat lunch together at one table in the officer's club, and then the men would look at us as scan, like what are they plotting?

What are they doing when we're all in one place? There were very few of us. And also I would say men or women, being a second lieutenant is not easy. And it's not easy for young men either, because my first job I was a platoon leader, which is a very typical first Army job for a young officer, which meant I was responsible for 30 soldiers and.

All but one of them were men, which shouldn't matter, but in that environment, it felt like it did all but one of them were older than me. And even the 19-year-old had been in the army longer than I had, and yet I'm in charge. And it was very disconcerting. I remember the first time I had to admonish a sergeant first class for his substandard performance.

Here I am, this 23-year-old girl, this man, oh my God, he was so old. I felt like I was chastising my grandfather. He must have been like 35. I don't know. But when you're 23 and you've been in the army six months and he's 35 and he's been in since he was 18, it was just, how do you earn respect?

And young men. Young men face the same challeng. It's not just young women because they are also green behind the ears. Really my prospects changed when I was sent to this two week northern warfare school at Fort Greeley, Alaska, which is in the middle of the state. And that's where we learned they taught us skiing and snowshoeing techniques.

We built snow ca, we slept outside under the Northern Lights. We learned to drag equipment in a sled across the snow and ice. And I was the only woman in the course out of about 40. I was by far the most junior. 'cause I was the only second lieutenant. And I was a military intelligence officer, which in the grand scheme of things was not considered as macho as infantry or artillery of something.

So nobody expected anything of me. And, they could look at me and see girl, second lieutenant, military intelligence. 'cause you wear it on your collar. But what they couldn't see, and what I didn't tell them was that growing up in Montana, my winter sport in high school had been Nordic skiing. I love that.

And what I also didn't tell them is I had competed at the national level. Now to be clear, middle of the pack didn't place, not even close, but still, it was more than, no, it came in very handy. Yeah. And I'd watched, most of these men struggle all week on their skis. We did a lot of things besides skiing.

But awkward, clumsy, very difficult to watch. And and the culminating exercise of this two week course was a combat biathlon. And you may have seen the biathlon, if you watch the Winter Olympics, they wear these little Lycra suits, skin tight. They have these very lightweight. 22 caliber rifles that you can just toss into the air because, you know every ounce counts and they race around on these fiberglass skis.

In the combat biathlon it was 10 kilometers. We used these heavy wooden military skis. They were about four inches wide with metal edges. You could barely touch the tips. And you did all this in your combat uniform with a Kevlar helmet on your head and a 25 pound ruck on your back. And an M 16, A one rifle, a rock on your back ruck.

A ruck sack, sorry, A big backpack with 25 pounds in what? Yeah. Insult injury. Okay. Sorry. A little military slang there. A rum a backpack, a big, army backpack. Got it. And and you have to ski 10 kilometers and then drop periodically to engage the target with your M 16. Again, I didn't tell anyone that this was my sport in high school.

We didn't ski with rucksacks in high school, but still I definitely had a leg up there and and at the end I beat everyone but one, there was one guy from the engineer battalion who had also grown up skiing who beat me. And there was a gra little graduation ceremony at the concluding of the biathlon where they hand out your certificates.

And some of the senior officers from across Alaska had come to that. And I will never forget that. Lieutenant Colonel George Vaca, commander of first of the 17th infantry, went over to one of his company commanders, an infantry company commander, a premier job for a guy at that point in his career. And he un he took the crossed rifles off the guy's collar, crossed rifles being the symbol of the infantry queen of battle, as they call it a branch that women were barred from.

And then he walked over and he placed those cross s rifles in the palm of my hands. And that's when I goosebumps. Yes. Yeah, tears even. That's awesome. And that's when I, you talked about, I, yeah I learned that if I was competent, people would stop worrying about which bathroom I was gonna use.

And if I was really good, the best leaders were gonna fight to have me on their teeth. That, that public affirmation of my abilities made all the difference. To that point, I'd been this kind of unproven untested butter bar that's slang for second lieutenant, a derisive term for a second lieutenant.

And now all of a sudden I was someone who had proved herself in an environment where grit and physical fortitude were really, sometimes unfairly the measure by which an officer was assessed in the infantry division in Alaska. And I did not have a time or time after that. It was, it was all good from there.

That's good that then, and that, that played out in that way to use your special skill that even though you might have been a slacker, which I doubt Yeah. That you were in college here. Yes. In college. But I'm sure you were always athletic and avid at Nordic Skiing. Did you ever, I'm curious, did you ever fess up and tell them about your background or just keep that to yourself?

I think they could see that, oh yeah, this girl has, they could actually, as we were learning that week, they could see that I knew what I was doing. I don't think anyone expected me to necessarily finish second in the biathlon because 10 kilometers with a heavy rock is a long ways.

And especially if you are not a good ski, it is a chore to, there's a grace and a beauty, frankly, to Nordic skiing that does not come overnight. It comes from, a lot of practice. So they knew that I. I was not complaining. I was doing okay in the cold. Other people are, huddled over by the stove or the fridge, or, I'm sorry, the fire.

I was gaining a little cred throughout the two weeks, but that blowing everybody out of the water on the competition at the end really made a difference. And again, it wasn't just my 39 classmates. It was then having senior officers from across the division come for the graduation.

And look what the, now actually, this isn't what you asked, but I will point out, I think there are some advantages to being different and unique. And one of them being that people notice you. Nobody knew who got third or fourth or fifth. If I'd gotten third, they would've talked about the girl that got third.

People pay attention and everything you do is magnified. And when folks say that, they say everything you do is magnified, they usually mean it in a bad way, but it can have positive impacts. If I got up and gave a briefing, somewhere at the division and I did really well, people would remember me.

But if you were one of 30, I, 'cause you're all wearing the same uniform and all the guys have the same haircut. If you're one of 30 identical, six foot tall white guys in camouflage and your name is Jones or Smith, they had to work twice as hard as I did to be noticed, to be honest and sometimes remembered.

So that was actually a silver lining there. I love that you brought that up, because of course our brand is Uncapable and you commented that I'm wearing orange, all the stuff in the back. Yes. Orange and I, as I mentioned in one of my emails, that I was the first woman ever hired for a hardware company.

Then I went on to work for a, an automotive exhaust company, Walker Exhaust, and I think there were two or three other women. But you're right, it was an advantage. And if you can find something that's unique about yourself and being a woman can be one of them, then of course, yeah. You get that acknowledgement and then you have to work harder probably to prove yourself.

Which you obviously did. But you, I like the fact that you brought that up, that if you wanna stand out and be remembered, which is huge in every walk of life, then you know, being a woman in a male environment is a place to start, for sure. Yeah. I that. I think one other advantage, I'm sorry.

No, go ahead. We you go ahead. One other advantage that I was very late to, I was actually probably retired before I realized this had been an advantage was that as a woman, I was not expected by others to conform to the same social norms as a man, right? So back in the day, everybody in this infantry division was chewing tobacco which is gross.

And it's not as common today. Today I'm a chewer. Hey. No but nobody looked at me and said oh, can you believe she's not dipping? It was, I perhaps I didn't explain that very well. I guess I would go back and say, when my family lived in Korea with me, we were there for four years.

An amazing experience. We loved it. And we would take the subway all over Seoul and we would note these, clothing trends, fashion trends, just Korean social trends we're Americans. We didn't feel like, Hey, I need to wear those kind of shoes. I need to have that kind of haircut. I need to, no one looked at us and said, why are they not dressed like us?

Does that make sense? Oh, it totally does. That's a really good and it was very late in life. I realized it was the same being a woman in a man's world. No one looked at me and said, why isn't she wearing X? Why isn't she driving a Jeep? I happen to drive a Ford Ranger, why isn't she listening?

I just, I felt very freed from the social norms that the male lieutenants might have felt pressure to conform to, because I was the girl. I could do what I wanted. And nobody said can you believe she's listening to whatever? And because I was different. I was allowed to be different, if that makes sense.

It does, but I think it worked for you because you were as you said, ambitious, driven, wanted to be successful because I did well in the biathlon and you did well in the biathlon even though you were carrying a ruck. Yes. Which now I know what a ruck is. So were there other so before that I think is when you were the second lieutenant, you were bossing people around who were older than you had less experience.

What about that time? How did you gain the respect at that point? So I think there are really two ways to, you must be competent. Now you are not going to know more than the people who've been there longer than you. So your competence is in leadership and there has to be mutual respect and consideration and I.

Let me back up. If you are very junior and you're new ask questions, don't act like you don't fake that you know everything. And show respect for those who've been doing this, who've been there a long time and been doing this longer than you. So say for instance, when I was the director of intelligence at US Central Command, responsible for intelligence support for all military operations, from Egypt to Pakistan, Yemen to Kazakhstan.

So you know, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel, Gaza, Syria, Yemen, you name it. And I had analysts who were experts in each of those areas. You don't, you're in charge, but you don't act like more about Yemen than the Yemen guy. You don't act like more about, if Sam Bin Laden than the people that are tracking him.

You treat them with respect and you're a good leader. And you ask questions. I. When leading those many times, you're leading people who have more experience than you. Most times I would say in whatever area it is, right? Perhaps they're the CFO, they know more about the finances. Maybe the CIO works for you.

He knows more about cybersecurity than you do. And to earn respect, I think it's being competent in those skills that you need to be good at and showing mutual respect. When I showed up at the Senate, I was very nervous, surprisingly nervous. 56 years old. I've been a three star general. I've done all kinds of things all over the world, and I felt like a second lieutenant again, because all of a sudden I'm the senior law enforcement official for the Senate.

I have a cop badge even though I've never attended the. The Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. I've never arrested someone. I've never been a police officer, and yet now I'm the senior law enforcement official. And it felt so much like being a second Lieutenant again. I'm in charge of this function that I've never done all these people.

Most of the men have been doing this way longer than I have, and yet I'm in charge. I wasn't the chief of police. There's also a Chief of police, but I'm responsible for the Senate security. How am I going to earn their respect? It was surprising to me to feel the same way 30 some years later. But again, demonstrating competence.

And as we worked to correct the security deficiencies at the Capitol, there were ample opportunities to demonstrate your competence as a leader and showing mutual respect. I'd been there, it was my second week on the job, and Officer Billy Evans was killed at the North Barricade. And people were still very devastated from January 6th.

Hundreds of officers had not returned to work who were injured. There had been two fatalities in the Capitol Police as a result of January 6th, and now we have a third. It's in I think it was April 2nd. And after the situation had stabilized and we'd brought the flags to half-Mast, and I don't know anybody, I, ironically I knew Billy Evans, he had, he and I had a conversation that morning at the gate.

But I walked around the perimeter and I approached each officer that I saw, and I expressed my condolences and my appreciation for the work that they do, which. It doesn't look dangerous until suddenly it is. And I saw people crying that officers, crying that day. And then when the hearse came by with his remains on Second Street, I joined the officers, at the curb and saluted and these things are noticed and like taking a hard job.

'cause you want the hard job. You're not sh you're not saying these things 'cause you're trying to suck up. You have to say these things sincerely. It has to be sincere and from the heart. And when you demonstrate competence and demonstrate mutual respect for the experts under you who know more than you do it, it doesn't take that long to earn their respect.

Which was very gratifying. And I couldn't believe I felt like a second lieutenant again in that Senate job. But I did. I know. I love that you. Worked through that, because I don't know if you had something special that you said to yourself or that you did, or it was just who you are. But was there anything specific you did or you just, I know I want this, I know I can do this.

I actually, I, it was less, I want this, it was, I have to do this. I, I had said already, oh my God, if I could do anything to ensure this never happened again, I would want to do it. It was very, a very similar calling to, many of my military roles. And quite frankly, it's also I, in that job, I took exactly the same oath I had taken as a military officer to support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, et cetera, et cetera.

It was exactly the same oath and I used to say, and I believe, I felt that I was doing more to support and defend the Constitution in my role at the Senate. As the chief security officer there and executive officer, then most of the jobs in the military. It just felt like a very similar calling.

And when you've lived a life of service and you are called to serve again, you just can't say no. So it was less that, oh, I want this job, even though I ended up loving it. It was less that I want this job. It was that I need to, this is a job that needs to be done and I've been called to do it and I'm going to do it.

I like that angle because when we, it reminds me of somebody I had on the podcast and she said, when you're nervous speaking that means you're thinking about yourself and you're not thinking about your audience. And when you talk about, okay, yeah, I was afraid, but your why, your mission, your purpose was bigger than that.

Yeah. And compelled you to do it, which I. Still very impressive. I like what you said about don't fake it. Yeah. I have a sales background and that is something that happens a lot and I think it happens, I'll just say this more with men, that men will just say, oh yeah, we could do that.

For you to respect the other people in the room, they say you don't wanna be the smartest person in the room. At least not about everything. So I think rather than just trying to bowl everyone over you, respecting their knowledge and using that knowledge, I'm sure did earn you a lot of respect.

I can't think of anything else that we missed. We just have a couple minutes here and then we are going to record a third episode, which is the bonus episode that I record for every guest. I'm gonna ask Karen some of the same questions I ask every guest, but I think it will be, there'll be a little bit more to that.

So be sure to stay tuned for that full episode. Once again, Karen is available for keynote speaking and I want to put all that information in the show notes that you can pursue that if you are interested. So Karen, thank you. I've just been fascinated, riveted. I appreciate you being on the podcast.

Thanks, Kay. I look forward to the bonus wrap.