Episode 159 | Forging Your Own Path in a Legacy Business — with Karen Norheim

In this episode, I sit down with Karen Norheim, President and CEO of American Crane & Equipment Corporation. Karen didn’t always plan to go into the family business. But after earning multiple degrees (and learning a thing or two about grit), she joined the company—and helped it evolve from the inside out.

What struck me most about Karen was her thoughtfulness around legacy. She shares how she honored her father’s vision while still bringing her own ideas to the table—and why culture and innovation matter just as much in manufacturing as they do in tech or media.

We talked about how women lead differently (and that’s a good thing), how to champion your people without micromanaging, and why “next generation leadership” is less about age and more about mindset.

If you’ve ever wondered how to make your mark in an established business—or how to build a legacy that lasts—this conversation is for you.

About Karen Norheim:

Karen Norheim is the President and CEO of American Crane & Equipment Corporation, a leading manufacturer of overhead cranes and hoists. She is the daughter of the company's founder and has been with American Crane for over 17 years. In 2019, she was appointed President and Chief Operating Officer, and she later became CEO. Throughout her tenure, Karen has emphasized the importance of company culture. In 2018, she introduced the mantra "GRIT Matters" to inspire perseverance and passion among employees. She also led efforts to codify the company's unwritten culture, ensuring that core values are clearly communicated and upheld.

Karen's leadership was particularly tested during the COVID-19 pandemic and the subsequent passing of her father. As a first-time CEO, she navigated these challenges by focusing on resilience and adaptability.

Resources:

The Manufacturing Institute

American Crane & Equipment Corporation

KeenAlignment

Vistage First-Time CEO Story

Check out Kay's Uncopyable Sales Secrets Video Series: https://www.beuncopyable.com/sales-course

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Transcript

 Today my guest is Karen Heim. Karen is a powerhouse in manufacturing who represents grit, leadership, and legacy As President and CEO of American Crane and Equipment Corporation, she's modernizing a family business while honoring its roots and leading the charge into a more innovative, inclusive future.

From launching an innovation lab to mentoring the next generation, especially women, Karen's mission is to create a ripple effect by inspiring others and providing a vision of what's possible. Karen, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. I'm very excited that you agreed to do this very generously sharing your time.

We talked a little bit about your family history the fact that you love to ski, but we probably won't get to that. But you have a unique situation because your family had a business and your father recruited you. So do you wanna tell, give us a little back background about that? Sure. And if you want, I can even give you like a little origin story of our company too.

'cause it's important to know the, the backstory of my father has a big influence on me, and I I think you'll appreciate it. Well, it sounds Yeah. Fascinating. I'd love to hear that. Great. So yeah. So my father, was one of the three gentlemen who started American Crane, the company I worked for in 1972.

And what's really interesting about him is that he was born in Norway, so he's, he's from Norway. He lived on a very small island called Lura, which was a farming community. His mother died when he was 10. He never knew who his biological father was. So he was adopted by his grandparents. And 1942 also was Nazi occupied Norway.

So had, you know, had, actually had great family in Norway, but had obviously, roots that he may, that led to him having an adventurous spirit, right? Because he, he didn't have a lot of things tying him down there as far as his direct parents. So, fast forward, he goes to school in Bergen for, to become a mechanical engineer.

And then he ends up working for a crane company and heading into Canada. First and then after being there for a few years, ends up in the US in a town called Douglasville, Pennsylvania. And in 1972, they incorporate our company. And he wasn't one of the original owners. He has, or I would say majority owners, he had a small play in getting it started and helping to conceptualize it.

But it wasn't until the 1980s, early eighties, it's like 84, 85 when the primary shareholder, another Norwegian. 'cause it was three Norwegians that started it together, ran the company into financial ruin. And my father had a choice. He could risk everything my family had at the time, which wasn't much and go for it.

Or he could, you know, he could walk away and he decided to take the entrepreneurial, go for the American dream. And he leaned in and at the time the company had 42 employees. And then he, you know, from there, fast forward to today you know, we've grown tenfold and we're now at almost 230 employees.

And so, so those early eighties he, takes over, gets control and then also starts changing the way we work. So we consider him our founder and. Specifically also we set like to say that he set the values where we now have like a, our custom and specialty clientele. So he really sets that, that vibe in now it, so he get, he gets control of the company, starts setting it in a positive direction.

And then we get to 2004 ish timeframe. My dad comes to me, so he's already made it a successful business at that point. There's probably like maybe 98 employees at that time. And he says, Kieran, I'd like you to come and work for me. And at the time I had been working, as we mentioned before in our, in the ski industry and had dreams of maybe going out west and kind of staying in corporate skiing.

And, and, and that's where I was headed. But he, he came to me and said, I want you to come work for me. And I had a really wonderful things, my dad, my in my life from my dad. And he was just such a wonderful person and a positive influence that I was like, okay dad, I'll come and work for you. I'm not sure if I'm gonna like these things called cranes and hoists.

But I'm gonna give it a shot. I'd like you to give me a little more money than what you're offering. And as I negotiated for more, and I said, I'll come and I'll give it a try. Well, it turned out to be the best decision I ever made. I love manufacturing. I love what we do. Cranes and hoist, overhead lifting is super fascinating.

We have the most interesting customers and amazing employees, and as I mentioned, we've grown all the way up now to 230 employees and growing. So super exciting. Never expected to be in this space, but grateful that I had a father who saw something in me to be able to, grow and, and eventually become you know, CEO, president of the company.

Otherwise, I may not have ever gotten into manufacturing. And then my, in 2021 we lost our my father my sister and I became owners of American Crane. So we're a woman-owned business, 50 50 between the two of us. And, and that's actually been great too. So we've successfully transitioned to our second gen and moving on and stewarding that into the future, hoping to save family owned and continue on to the third generation.

So there you have it. It ain't proverbial nutshell. So did your sister work at the company too, or she just. Got money invested in the company. She does, she, she manages our outreach efforts in the community and also manages all of our facility development. So we're, we're growing and we need space.

So she's been creating I. Like, I guess you'd call it like land development, like trying to get another story on our building and renovating spaces, making sure we have you know, our, our shop lunchroom needed an upgrade, you know, things like that. And she's done a really fa fabulous job.

We also had a really exciting project that we did that started last November where we put a mural, dedicating our history onto the side of our building. And it's beautiful and it it honors our father, it honors the history of the company, all of our great employees, and she was instrumental in doing this project.

And what was really cool is it was a mural on the side, but it was like squares. And so we painted it together with employees and then it was adhesed to the wall afterwards. So in essence, we got to paint our mural. So everybody kinda had a touch in it, which was super exciting. It's beautiful. I see it every day when I come in.

I look at it, I, there's a, like I said, the an, a silhouette of my dad in there and I like, Hey dad, it's really cool. So my sister works on projects like that and that's actually one that's been super rewarding to be a part of. I definitely picked up on the fact that you're a big people person when I was studying and learning about you.

And it sounds like you're also fascinated by machinery and equipment. I'm sure there's so much more to it than people realize. I started out in the automotive industry and, and I'd never really got too excited about the product, but it was the people, especially at that time I was selling through distributors, helping small businesses and, and that was so satisfying and fulfilling.

So really it is, it's about the people. That's why these businesses exist. And I also taught, heard you talk about Vikings, the Viking spirit. Sounds like your father came from very hardy stock. So where does the Viking. Teeth come in. Yeah. So Lura, the island that he grew up on in Norway was once home to the Vikings.

It's documented. It had there's actually, a bowl that was once where they held a thing, which is the Viking equivalent of having having like a, a legal moment where you, the laws of the land are done or you judge people and whatnot. There's all kinds of interesting artifacts that are on that island.

And then he came to the us excuse me. He came to the US obviously from Norway, but when, when we were in, I think it was around 2018 timeframe, we're working on our cultures, working on our what are, what are our core values? What is our mission? What are all of those pieces? And when we were going through that process, he had gone to back to Norway to visit family, and he came back with this.

Poster and and it's was old Viking Laws and he gives it to me and he says, Karen, this is our culture. This is, this represents us. And it has things like be brave and aggressive. You know, keep the camp in order, have one chief. It actually is incredibly relevant to business today. So he was right. So this was this great poster actually in my office.

I can see it from here. It's hanging this poster that he brought back. And then, you know, we, we morphed that into, added that in and that philosophy into what we do here at American Crane and our, what we call our core behaviors. But what I like to say is that, you know, he had for all these years had an unspoken culture that was just like the Vikings, it was passed down by word of mouth.

It was, you know, like the sagas were for the Vikings. That's how they told their stories and that's how they, taught their culture, their values, what was important their history. And so we, that was all an oral tradition in our company until 2018 when we started to write it down. And my mission at that point in time was because, you know, my dad wasn't gonna be around forever.

And I'm like, oh my gosh, I saw like a, an issue where if, if we lose our founder, like how are, are we gonna make it and survive past it? So all of that hard work ended up paying off, you know, as we hit, crazy things like COVID and then eventually losing him. But yes, it's all kind of tied into Viking laws.

I often use, and if you were here at American Crane with me and some of my other employees, I often use the ship metaphor and I'm often talking about the crew and, and the pieces and, and I actually have my own life philosophy. Around embracing being a Viking, which you know, being a gardener most, most vikings were actually farmers gra where all of these Viking artifacts are from actually as farmland.

So they were farmers first, and they were Royer second. So they went a viking and went out to do, the viking and the trading and the, those types of pieces. So you be a gardener. You cultivate yourself, you invest in yourself, you invest in those relationships with people. You build trust, you do all those things, and then you become a warrior.

When you embrace that when you're in the thick of it, like when you have a crisis or an obstacle to overcome when you're, you know, in a moment where you're doing the sales thing or you're in the, you're actually building the products and you're, you know, going through it. Those are your warrior moments, but you've done all this pre-work to get to the point where you're able to show up there.

And then I also like to say. Being a storyteller, which is based on, again, just like the Vikings had their oral tradition of sharing who they were and what was important. We have to do that same thing within our organizations and honestly for life and our families and other areas. And that's how we share and learn.

We're humans are made to learn through that whole story aspect. So those are some of the ways that I weave that in. But yes, I do have a strong a strong identity tied to our Norwegian heritage and the Viking heritage that is there. I'm glad I asked that question because that's pretty darn fascinating that spirit, and as you said, the gardening, there's that side of everything.

And then when it's time to fight and I'm sure running a company requires both. I should have brought my little Viking. I have a Viking helmet because our daughter went to Portland State University and they are the Vikings. And on our shelf, I have a Viking helmet. I love that. I love that. But, and of course we are all about being UNC Copyable.

That's our brand. And you've got a story that's UNC copyable, and that is really, it's not, really this all happened before you came along. So whether it was all meant to be or luck or coincidence, but you have embraced that, and I love that because if another company came along and tried to copy you, they cannot copy that story.

Not even close. You've got that and it has affected your culture. All the, like you said, the ripple effect from that story. Very fascinating. Very fascinating. So let's talk about a few of the points you said you'd be willing to talk about. As we said, you're a people person. It's all about the culture of the people.

What are your strategies for building long-term relationships, especially of course with customers, because you want to drive long-term sales, so how do you feel about that? Yeah, so if I, if I start with the angle of like, let's do with sales, I mean, so we are very much a relationship ba based to based business.

And I think that the most important thing in a relationship with another human, okay. 'cause even though we're businesses to business, it's still human to human is trust. Can I trust this person? And also, you know, will they deliver what it is they're going to deliver? And can I also identify with that, the, that person.

So as part of our sales strategy, I mean, we invest a lot of time in long-term relationships and reconnecting with our customers. We have, you know, in our service group a very high retention of, of the people that we work with. And so I think the biggest, the biggest selling point is that we show up and we do the work and we're really transparent.

So, we believe that if we're having issues with a customer, there's an, I wouldn't even call it an issue. If there's an obstacle and there's something going on, let's say it's gonna have an impact on schedule or you know, delivery, which can be a big issue. We don't just wait until the delivery date comes around and say, oh yeah, we can't, we can't deliver.

It's gonna be a couple more months later. We look at the problem. Try to find a solution or an alternate path, and then we go right to the customer and say, Hey, let's talk about this. We have a surprise. We're a no surprises place. So like, Hey, here's what's going on. And this way, this way there's trust that they know we're gonna do everything we can to meet that deadline.

But if something happens and we, we can't, it's out of our control. We're gonna go and we're gonna talk to you about it and we're gonna find a way through it. And that, I think, applies. To all areas of the aspect of how we work with our customers, and that builds trust. And then that's why we have, some customers who come back over and over again and why our reputation is so good in the industry.

And that's also delivering. So when our service techs go out in the field we have them equipped with the right information, education, learning, know-how, so that they can fix things the first time. They can provide a quality experience for the customer in the field, or we build and engineer our products from a quality standpoint to make sure that they're going to meet the application that they are meant to.

And we stand behind that if there are problems. So those to me, are always that you demonstrate to a customer that you, you know, that you, you build trust and you demonstrate your integrity. And I think that is a really important piece of it. And then to kind of pivot a little bit from. Sales and just let's say to relationships with the community or other areas?

You know, for an example, which is like a sales could be a sales example, but is for our recruiting purposes, there's a local college, which is super exciting. We've known about them a two year career college with technical degrees, and I literally just went there today for an amazing tour.

But that tour to get to the right person, to get the tour, to create a wonderful connection for both them and for us, for potential recruiting and just to help our industry in general, came out of. One of my leadership team, knowing somebody and cultivating a relationship with them, knowing that, then learning enough about them to know that they were associated with this college, putting me in touch with that person.

There was a meeting then that I had with that person. We got to know each other. We have synergies between our, our businesses. Then I said, oh, we'd love to do a tour. Then this person did an introduction and got us on the tour. Now we're connected with her. So there is a cascading that you, you know, this this relationship capital that you have to build up and invest, and in the end it's worth, all of those touch points are worth it.

But it's more than just an email, a phone call. Hello. And I think you need to, you can apply that to sales, you can apply that to relationship with community. And then I also think when we, we, you know, you talked a few, few times here. About people and how important people are, and then people, purpose and yes, and I believe our people at American Crane are our most important part of our business.

How do we have a good relationship with our employees? How do we have a culture where people wanna come to work and they thrive, they wanna thrive, thrive, and they're in an environment where they can do the great work? We invest in our culture, we invest in our people, we invest in training, we make sure our workplace is is there.

We try to, we're, we apply that. No transparency, not that we're perfect at it, but like we, that same philosophy with our, with our employees and I think that all is building trust with them that, hey, you know, this is a great place to work. I, I trust my leaders. I trust the direction. And that piece, honestly, all of those.

Examples are gardening. They are things that you have to continually do. There is a cycle. It never ends like cultural. What's important for us be for behavior. I like to say I'm the chief reminding officer. I have to tell the same stories over and over and over and over and over again. And it's not that after so many times they'll just remember.

It's actually just, we actually have to keep repeating these stories that are important to us, these lessons, these values, behavioral values that we feel are important. Or you know, that whatever else it is that we, you know, about our culture and that we're kind of making sure is instilled. But it's fun.

I enjoy that it sounds in a moment it sounds, oh my gosh, it's all this work. But at the same time. This is, I like to think of life as being about the journey, not the destination. And I'm really enjoying the journey that I am on. And this whole cycle is a part of my journey and what I do in my role as the you know, the CEOI am, I'm responsible for reputation, which is that trust with customers, and I'm responsible for culture.

The buck stops with me. It's my job to make sure that all those things align. But it's fun. I do enjoy it. Well, I can tell, and you're, you also do some speaking right. And I could tell you are, you're really laying this out in a way that's interesting and makes sense and makes me wanna come to work for you if you hire senior citizens.

Oh, sucks. Thank you. So I wrote some notes. You could probably tell I have a consulting client and they have a family origin story and they keep thinking that people are tired of it and that, oh, let's try this, or let's try that. Yep. You might be tired of, it doesn't sound like you're tired of it, but your customers and your employees, that's what they hang their hat on.

That's how they see you. And kudos to you for really sticking to that vision. What else did I write down? Bad news first is one of my sayings. It's never a good idea to withhold bad news. You're never ever gonna win. It's so hard to deliver bad news, but in the end. As you said, that builds trust with the customer and then you have the chance to help them fix it.

So you are doing so many things right as far as being out in the community and you're building potential recruits. And I know in the manufacturing industry, that's a big problem right now, getting employees so. Well, you know, you just said you're, you're the company that you work with that's working on their origin story and say they're tired of the p the thing is that's so important for recruiting and what I, what we've done is, you know, we had it verbally, but now we've created a video with it.

We have our Origins story trailer that we've created, and now it's locked in. So I, this video can speak that story over and over, and then I'm speaking it too. But yeah, you, you don't get to just like stop speaking the story, right? We have to just keep doing it. And I think that that's a part of why we've been able to hire, in spite of all of the trends that are making it difficult.

Certainly we have lots of techniques of how we're trying to get it, get people in the, in the door that we need. But that having that story and having it lined up and having those pieces helps our recruiter, you know, and also helps us to attract people to us, customers and employees.

So I agree. Super important that it's. It's a marketing moment. And even though for me personally, I know the story of my dad. I know it deeper and I know more and whatever, but it, it, you just can't not keep telling it. I love that you said that. That's a good, really good point. Good. I'm glad I said it too.

I wanted to ask, it sounds like your father was on that same track and you kind of took that to the next level and then some, but he had those values. Did that make that easier then to step in and more exciting to, you know, max that out? Yeah, I, I feel like I'm able to amplify what he created. He got us kinda to this point here.

I would, you know, like we moved down line, we got to here and we had the values and we had great people, and we had the we were doing things and we had a good culture. But what we did by, by professionalizing it or putting it into words and, and it was, it's evolved over the years. Just being intentional.

Being intentional about what we believe our culture is and what we value at our work and, blocking it into words that we can be all speaking and rowing in the same direction and speaking in the same language. That's an amplifier effect and I think it's a competitive advantage. You know, it totally is.

It totally is. The fact that you walk your talk we have a saying in the end, copyable philosophy. That experience is the marketing. So you are also paying attention to the service you give your customers. A moose in the unco language is your target market, your ideal target market. And I think one mistake companies make salespeople make is that they've overlooked the fact that their customers are still their moose.

You don't sell someone and kind of move on. So that trust has to be carried through the whole way. And you're right, if you don't trust someone and they say not like no one trust or no, like, and trust, we added remember into our book because you also have to be remembered. But I do think trust is the one thing that can be a total deal breaker.

Who would buy from somebody they don't trust? Not me. I. Not me, I'm sure not you. I just say, I have to say I love that you added, remember. And I think that is so important because we are in emotional, like emotional, we are in informational or information overload all the time. There's so many messages, there's so many people, they're trying to get your attention.

Whether it's like personal life, business life. There's just so much going on. So to have a story or have like the ability to stand out and be unique enough that you are remembered, right? And then to repeat that memorable story over and over again is so critical. And, you know, the, again, that's definitely part of our intentionality of what we're doing right now and what we've been doing.

We just keep building on those little, those pieces. And it's, it's, especially if you can, if you've got an origin story that is unique, only blessed that ours is super unique, but you know, everybody has one right there. Everybody has their piece that is that they can find. So I just thought that was really cool.

Well, I have a story. I don't know. It's not the same type of origin story, but I told you I started out in the automotive exhaust. Market. And at the time I was one of three women and I became the number one salesperson. So that was a big deal. I got a trophy and it's the only trophy I've ever won in my whole entire life.

I'm not very coordinated but. One of the things that I did to get there is that when I started, I didn't know what I was doing. I admit that and my customers were skeptical. Here comes this chip. You know, I'm 23 years old, and so I went to my distributor, my biggest customer, and said, is there a muffler shop that I can go into and spend the day and learn how to.

Weld and install mufflers. So I did, and I learned a ton, but I had no idea what that story would mean. And so I got the nickname Muffler Mama. I've had it all these years. I still do part of my branding and no one's ever tried to fight me for it for some reason. I love it. But we do the orange and we do the things that we stand for.

And you have your story. That's so true. If you remem, if you hear facts and figures or whatever you don't remember those, like your story of your dad coming from Norway, the Vikings, the Garden. I won't forget those things. And our listeners, you listening won't either. And if you don't have an origin story, I feel like it's never too late to create a story.

And, you know, you talk about personal branding, that's authentic and based on your values. So if you can create a story I bet if you're listening and you really think about it, there's something that you can do. Like I did go into the darn muffler shop and install a muffler, something that just really is a symbol of what you stand for.

But you often, often, I think it's the obvious things that people miss that, that they're so authentic to them, that sometimes they don't realize how unique they are until you unfold them. So I agree. Everyone has that story inside of them. Yes. What else was I gonna say? Maybe it's what you're gonna say.

We to, we did touch on branding. Branding is obviously much more than a logo. Logo and even more of a than a story. So you talked about that you possibly had advice for others who want to build their brand. What would you say to others who want to represent what they stand for? I think that, you know, there's twofold.

There's, if you're your company brand, and then you can also work on your personal brand. And, and I remember having, hearing a speaker, it was probably at what Women in Manufacturing event years and years ago or that were, I, someone had gone on the stage and they talked about what is your personal brand, what do you stand for, what are your values?

And I view this as looking inside. And saying, what, what do I care about? Who am I? And it's hard to know all these things. It takes a while. And, and sometimes you only know a little bit of yourself. And as you go, you learn more and more it becomes more clear. But to go back to my Viking analogy, they used to use a sunstone to find the sun and the sky when the sky was covered with clouds.

So you'd be in the ship and you couldn't, the clouds are covered, you don't know where, which way you're going, but you could use this crystal and it could give you kind of a directional cue so you knew where you're going. So by spending the time saying, okay who are you? What do you really care about?

What's, what makes you feel? What do you, what do you get excited about? What do you not get not excited about? I think then you can get, create your own sunstone with which to use as that guide. And then knowing who you are, you have to start with that piece. I think you can start knowing who you are and start working on your brand at the same time, and they'll start to evolve.

Then it's, okay, how do I personally, how do I wanna show up if I wanna show up? Somebody who knows what they're talking about. And is someone who's trustworthy. I'm going to show up on time to meetings if not early. I'm going to be professional. I'm going to have polite courtesies I'm going to wear, make sure my clothing is all like doesn't matter what the dress code is, but you know, it's, I'm not sloppy, whatever that version is.

And just feeling put together and, and I think you can signal cues that to other people about what your brand is by these different methods. Also, how you treat people. Also how you respond to communications with people. So there's all those things that you can do on the personal side, and I think it's a.

Never ending thing. You know, that you can evolve and we change, right? So the, those things evolve too, and our positions change and all those things. And then there's also when you look at that whole idea from the company side, there's I think the reputation and performing with your customers and that trust piece is a part of it.

And then the matching. You know, I feel like today in American Crane, we really visually represent what I feel we create, but it's taken years to kind of sharpen the way things have looked to get to that point where I think we, we visually look as cool as the, I feel that the stuff is that we do. And then this now like really layering in that storytelling piece of why are we different?

How are we unique? Where can we zag when other people zig? How can we tell our story differently And being unique and owning who we are and own no, again, that's also I. Knowing the sunstone for the business, like who are we, what makes us different? What are those pieces that are important to us?

And pulling that all together. But it's, it's very important work, but but very, very pays off tenfold. And then right now, the pH so I guess if I'm giving advice to people, it's sort of like honing in first on like, what are your values? Who are you, what are what it makes those authenticity pieces.

Then going a little bit more into like, the story piece of it. Like what is the history, where's the uniqueness, what's really unique about it? And your value proposition can play in there too. But I would go more into like the story and the history and the, the pieces and the people, and then you move into that storytelling piece where you start crafting something that's interesting and, and then aligning things up so that you're, you're telling that consistent story over and over and over again.

And yeah, I, I, it's, it's going to evolve, but I feel like maybe those are some good pointers. And that origin story makes it really, that was the, if I, if I say, where are we on American Crane's journey? You know, we, we we're at that point now where we've, we've locked in that video piece that kind of tells that origin story.

And we, we used to say grit matters. We still say grit matters as a core of who we are. That we believe that grit is one of our key factors of, the ability to overcome obstacles no matter what. We, we can overcome a lot of crazy things that happen with our jobs and the things we have to do for our customers.

And, and we are just, we're gritty. We know how to do that. We're not, we're unfazed in the storm comes along, bring it, we're gonna figure out how to make it through. That's kind of like the vibe of who we are now. We've evolved that to always lift, never quit, which is sort of the, the mantra telling that story.

And that's, you know, like you said, always lift never quit isn't enough. But all of these pieces rolled together weaves a tapestry and a story that you can then tell more stories inside of and, and kind of layer it, layer it all in. But that's a great way to, explain all that and wrap that this up. One thing, as we close out, I have to say that you are obviously excited about what you do and excitement is contagious.

And if you are just, oh yeah, we have this new product, of course that's kind of an exaggeration. But really when you, you know, and, and you are passionate about cranes and the, the equipment, but I think you're more, I shouldn't say more, but equally passionate about all of the other pieces like that come together in that tapestry.

There are so many moving parts, and as you said, we grow and evolve and we do need personal brands because there's a company brand and then there's what you personally stand for and they obviously have to mesh. Yep. Karen, this has been really fascinating. I can't believe a half an hour has gone by, but it has, and listeners.

You're gonna love every moment of that interview. I know. And take the pieces that you can and apply them to your job, your company, your life. So Karen, I just wanna say thank you so much for being on the podcast. My pleasure.

Wow, that's, that was really good.