Episode 179 | Persuasion isn't a Dirty Word! with Shelby Jo Long

In this episode of Uncopyable Women in Business, I sit down with Shelby Jo Long, a keynote speaker, author, and business strategist who has spent nearly two decades teaching and coaching others in the art of communication and persuasion. 

Shelby explains why persuasion isn’t about manipulation but about building credibility and connection. She shares how learning to stand for something, invite opposing viewpoints, and foster constructive disagreement can strengthen leadership and spark innovation. Drawing from her background in debate, she highlights the power of listening, storytelling, and empathy as tools to create real impact.

Listeners will gain insight into how to shift from delivering rehearsed pitches to asking the right questions, how to use communication as a competitive edge, and how to turn moments of conflict into opportunities for growth. Shelby’s message is clear: credibility and influence come not from avoiding disagreement but from embracing it with confidence and clarity.

About Shelby:

Shelby Jo Long is a keynote speaker, author, and business strategist who helps organizations transform their communication into a competitive edge. With 18 years as a Communication Professor and international collegiate debate coach, she brings unmatched expertise in leadership, conflict management, and organizational culture. Through her CORE Leadership Framework, Shelby empowers executives, entrepreneurs, and teams to embrace constructive disagreement, build resilience, and engage with authenticity. As CEO of Business Dynamics and founder of Cadence Speaker Academy, she equips professionals to amplify their influence, expand their revenue streams, and lead with clarity in today’s fast-changing business landscape. 

Reach Shelby:

Website 

LinkedIn 

Check out Kay's Uncopyable Sales Secrets Video Series: https://www.beuncopyable.com/sales-course

Want to be more successful, make more sales and grow your business? If so, you'll love this podcast. In this show, I (Kay Miller, aka "Muffler Mama," interview superstar business women from all industries. Their experience and advice will give you specific tools you can use to crush your goals like those grapes in my favorite "I love Lucy" episode. I earned the nickname “Muffler Mama" when sold more automotive mufflers than anyone in the world. Besides being a #1 Salesperson, I've been a successful entrepreneur for over 30 years. During that time, I (along with my husband, Steve) have generated 8 figures in revenue for our business. Besides hosting this podcast, I'm an author, speaker, coach, consultant and most importantly....Kelly's mom.

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Transcript

 Be an advocate and think about persuasion. People don't think about that, and I think it's, they don't, they think of persuasion is like a dirty word. It's not, okay, we're entrepreneurs. We need to sell ourselves.

We need to be influential. Influential. And there's no other way to do that unless we're persuading and advocating and standing for something. It's, we're not just informing, people are going past that. People aren't going to listen to you unless you take a stance and they might disagree with you, but so what?

I disagree with a lot of people and it's a disagreement's. Okay. I love that. I'm just gonna dive in because, uh, you can tell how passionate my guest today is about communication and persuasion. And Shelby Joe Long is a keynote speaker, author, and business strategist who helps leaders and entrepreneurs turn communication into a competitive edge.

She was spent 18 years as a communication professor and international debate coach, and she now helps professionals harness their unique communication skills and expand their influence through her core leadership framework. Shelby, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

I'm excited. And by the way, do you go by Shelby Joe? Shelby's fine. I just need Shelby's fine. Okay. You're easy to, to please there. Yeah. Well, I just had to start the show with what you were talking about because I asked you, uh, specifically about debate. Yeah. Because I think, you know, as I mentioned, my moose for this podcast is mostly women and sometimes we're a little more, uh, you know, reluctant to really get out there and, and fight for what we believe in or to really forcefully persuade someone.

And as you said, persuasion isn't a dirty word. If you've got something of value that you could share with people you know, tell us more about why is this so important, this distinction I we live? Yes, and thank you for all of those things. I talk about my experience in debate, but I've been in the world of debate and communication and persuasion for a very long time.

I was a high school and college competitor and debate. I traveled around the country to compete. I also coached it for a lot of years. So I traveled around the country and the world talking about persuasion and talking about debates and how important building an advocacy is and standing for something.

And in, in a world of such polarization that we're in right now, and particularly the violence that is erupting around it, we might be a little bit nervous. And I think even before that happened, we were nervous. We, the general, we was nervous to take a stand and advocate for something and persuade our audience.

'cause that was something that, you know, particularly, I'm a, I'm a former teacher professor where we informed and people had to remember things and then write them on an exam and we didn't wanna persuade and be a part of that. But even in that space, you have to. Persuade them to listen to you and persuade them that you are credible in that space.

And I think particularly with entrepreneurs and speakers that's something that we need to think about too. You're not credible just because you're standing in front of an audience, right? You're credible. You build your credibility with your ethos, and you build your credibility by what you speak about.

And by taking a stand for something, and maybe I'm just conditioned that it's okay to have a different opinion than your superior or your colleague. Or your teammate, it's okay to take a, take a stand for something because it's the conversation and of those opposite viewpoints that really creates that truth and creates that mutual understanding so we can create solutions together.

So maybe it's my experience, but I, I do think even, and it's, it's with women more so than men. Tend to not want to have that directive communication, but even, even males in decision making structures on boards in the C-suite, that innovation is really stifled because people are scared to speak up and they're scared to contribute their opinion.

And I think that's what I'm trying to change in people, whether they're leaders or team members or they're members of an organization. That it's okay, let's have the conversation, let's discover the solution together. So that's a very long-winded answer to a very short question. Yeah. Well the thing is, I just wish you were a little bit more passionate about it.

And that makes a good point too, because enthusiasm is contagious and, and passion is contagious. If you were to tell me all of what you just said and just talk about it in a monotone and tell me that's what you feel, that wouldn't have nearly the impact as how you just delivered that.

And the first part that's on this recording, you listening can probably figure out, wasn't really even supposed to be on the recording. That's how Shelby feels. That's the real her, that's how she sees this, scenario of yes, being afraid to be. To disagree. Being afraid to disagree. Put your opinion out there.

Uh, maybe as women, that's even harder. Uh, I did take some debate in high school. I don't think I was really great at it, but I've been a great salesperson. But one thing I loved is that when you would have to argue one side, and then you'd have to flip to the other side. That's a, at every tournament you, many frequently you had to argue for a side that you didn't believe.

And I think that's such a, an amazing educational opportunity for someone to go through is imagine if our leaders were doing that. We'd have, instead of throwing, you know, one line phrases at each other, if we had these conversations, what kind of solutions could we create together? And I think that's so important in.

You know, I've worked with multiple types of companies, tech companies, to nonprofits, to, banks. And though all of those types of organizations there's some hesitancy to take a stand and to do that. And, but when we have that conversation, that's where we create that truth, that collaboration is, is how we make decisions.

And I think it's, there's bigger things that you've gotta have an open culture to be able to invite those things. But it's a, it's something that, that I think is a lost art in just in our communication. And I think fundamentally people are frightened of that. People are frightened to, I mean, I taught college for 18 years, and the biggest fear that they have is the actual communication.

And that might be standing up in front of an audience and talking, but it's really the face-to-face communication. And I think particularly since the advent of like everybody's talking on their phones, people are not having conversations face to face anymore, and we're not talking on the phone. We don't think about our tone and our inflection and our nonverbal behavior and all of those things that can be distracting and can be take away from your ability to really make an impact.

So that's what I want to inspire business owners to think about. Whether you're a solo business owner doing a sales pitch, and you've been in sales for a lot of years. Mm-hmm. So you know how to answer objections and all of those things. Or whether you're in a boardroom with your C-suite making a decision, or whether you're talking to your customer service team that.

We need that human connection. So that's what I want to inspire people to think about. Well, you're inspiring me already. And, uh, I'm reminded by, of a meme. I'm reminded of a meme and there's some type of picture of these kids sitting around on their phone and then they're just like staring into the screen, slumped over, and then they show what they're typing and all these emojis exciting, and this and that, this and that.

But it's just, it's really passive because it's through the phone. And of course, we all know about sending texts and emails and how things can be misconstrued, and you don't have a chance to clarify things as you go if you just send your message out and then wait for the answer. And yes, it's, it can be scary if we get into the big.

Important political, global, all these types of things. But when we bring it down to our sales and our business, what a great exercise. I hadn't thought of this for a while, but it's such a great exercise to sell your competitor's product. How would you sell your competitor's product against yours?

That is, how powerful is that? Have you done that with your, uh, clients at all? Uh, I have not, but that's a great idea. I have my clients debate. I have them. Okay. That's alright. Because there's there and have those conversations. I sit with leadership teams and I have them go through these conversations.

Present the other side of the argument. Listen to, I mean, a big thing about communication too is that it's communicating and being empathetic and being charismatic in your communication. But there's a lot of listening too. So it's a, there's a. And that's a key parts that we don't often think about.

You know, I'll give you an example in debate and whether or not you're debate trained or not, that's one thing that is, or we're sitting in a board meeting listening to the person that's speaking ahead of you. We used to have to listen to them, and we used to have to flow down all their arguments and then write our arguments and then get up and speak afterwards, like listening and being able to articulate what the other person is saying.

So you can either respond to it or break apart their arguments. That's a skill that I don't see very often and something that really should be nurtured because in a boardroom, making big decisions about budgets and, and where money is going, and we should be having these conversations. We should, there should be differing opinions.

There shouldn't just be one person that's making those decisions. That's called groupthink, right? When everybody's thinking the same thing. And acting on a charismatic leader and not questioning decisions that can lead to danger, pretty dangerous situations. So that's what I, that's what I'm, my mission is to inspire people to think differently about conflict and disagreement, and to have those difficult conversations.

I, I think this is all great information reminders. Maybe we've heard some of this. I think the fact that we all need repetition to learn is very good for people like you, Shelby, and me, who help clients to, uh, deal with these issues. But you're right. I think as salespeople, as leaders too, I'm sure we wanna talk, but we don't even know what to talk about until we find out really what the questions are.

Or, or what the, what the important things are. Mm-hmm. So, you know, I think that we get really wrapped up. Some of it is, is, you know, could be all kinds of things. We have a sales number on our head or, you know, we need to bring in business to, to grow and support the families that work for our business, whatever.

But uh, we also just kind of, we get wrapped up in how much we love what we think. And what we are selling or whatever, what we represent. So I know I, I'm probably gonna be putting you on the spot, but luckily I can tell you can totally handle it. Are there any, think of the, the listener, are there any phrases, any catch phrases or little things that you can say that would help us remember when they're in, we're in the midst of talking with someone who, one who doesn't do doesn't agree, sorry, doesn't agree.

Or we are wanting to persuade something, you know, to let them know. We understand. We're thinking, we're having empathy along that line. When you're in a, some sort of disagreement, is that what we're talking about? Well, I'm rambling all over the place. Yeah. Probably in a sales situation, let's say a sales situation, we'll just pick that as, as something that, that I deal with a lot.

The salespeople who really we're better, and I'll include myself, we're better at talking than listening. Yes, that's true. And many people are much more comfortable talking than listening. Especially they practice their sales pitch. They probably have it scripted. They know what to say next, and that, that feels comfortable for people because that's because they like to have that in front of them.

I've never been that kind of speaker, but probably 95% of people are that way. And it's the importance when you're in that sales conversation. Yes. It's, you're asking for a transaction. But it's also that you're ask, you're asking and you're persuading that you are the option that they want to make.

And it's not about the product, it's about you. They're not buying your product because it's amazing and maybe that they are, but there's probably a hundred other products out there that are similar to yours. I'm in the speaking and business consulting world. There's a million business consultants out there.

Mm-hmm. You can choose whatever you want. The, there are also many great business consultants. There are also some not very good business consultants, but how do I know that in the sales process, I have to assume that my audience and the person that I am speaking to hasn't done all that research. So I've got to be able to articulate that and adapt and shift and move a way that feeds the needs of my audience.

How can my product, it's asking them the questions about what's your biggest problem right now? What can I help? What are, what's your biggest concern right now? Is it money? Is it, you know, being able to shift and move the conversation to be what need rather than what you want to say? And I think as an entrepreneur, that's hard because especially, you know, you developed your program, you've developed your, you had yourself to sell.

And yes, if I don't tell 'em all the information, they're not gonna buy it. Which is not as true as when you have the conversation and you're invested emotionally with them. People spend money much more on emotion than they do on logic. I'm guilty, right? Go to the store and, and I'm, who hasn't done a little retail therapy in their life?

Right. We, we, right. We tend to spend much more money on emotion than we do logic, and that's the personal connection that people are afraid of. So I think there's a, there's a gift of being agile and being able to adapt in those sales conversations. I think that's a, that's something that's really something to do.

And I mean, that's as easy as, as asking those questions instead of going with the sales pitch to them. Your first question should be to them, should be about what you're doing or what problem you're solving. And I think that's a key part. And, and you're the expert in sales, so you could probably add into this conversation, but if I can solve, if my product can solve a problem that you have.

If I can speak directly to, to how it can solve the exact problem that you have that's gonna make sure you get the sale or it's going to increase your probability a lot more. So ask questions first. Sell second would be my, my thing. And I think that's this. I think that's a really great thing to do in a boardroom or in a conversation with somebody that say your side.

Let me ask you another question and then, then I can talk about what my side is. So as a quick rule, it's also a way to like reset yourself too and to be able to use some of their, it's a. It's a strategic form of manipulation. Interesting. Well, I don't know if I'm gonna say right yet, because not manipulation, manipulation has negative connotation too.

Uh, it does, but let me, I'm cra taking so many notes here. So I wanna say when you say I'm a sales expert and I know about asking these questions, one of my favorite thing that's happened at more than once, I don't know how many times, is when people say, what are you selling? And I say, I have no idea.

I have no idea what I'm selling you. Or even if I'm selling you until I find out about you. You know, it's the old sell this pen. Do you even need a pen? You know, what will you use a pen for? You know, are you, do you have a pen now? So it, there's that old exercise, but it's not about the pen. Of course, our whole entire UNC Copyable framework is about the fact that you are the secret sauce.

Because yes, there are other consultants, there are other products and services that are, maybe they're better, maybe they're worse, maybe they're good enough. And that's what I've found when I'm in sales situations, that when I bring myself to the table and I, they know they can trust me, that I'm their advocate, that I will fight for them.

I'll be there. I'm reliable. Then my product can be good enough and they'll still stick with it. Uh, in my book, UN Copyable Sales Secrets, I talk about a gentleman who changed. He was working for a distributor and he moved to work with a different distributor, and he had a non-compete clause, which is pretty common.

And once that ran out, all his clients went with him. Even though it was a higher price and he, he said, well, what's a lower price gonna do for you if you can't get the product or some, there's a problem and your sales rep won't respond. There are so many things how you, if you're B2B like I am, it's really, a lot of it is about how your clients succeed.

So instead of, it's all, like you said, not about just talking, you know, who do you sell to? What's important to them? How do you serve them? What other opportunities? So it's, it really is, it's so much about asking and. I'm a talker. People say, oh, I have the gift of gab. That's a problem.

Because really it is, it takes a discipline. It really takes discipline to not just just dump stuff on them. And if you tell people too much and if you tell them things that they don't care about, they'll just totally tune you out. So I, I love really what you're saying, and I would like your take on another question.

Maybe we'll talk about the manipulation thing, which isn't really a bad thing. When we get our kids to eat healthy food, we both talked about our kids, we're probably manipulating them right into wanting to eat vegetables. So it's, it is, it's, it's not a, a game. Maybe it is a mind game. But how would you say you persuade people?

Because you can't get someone else to change their mind. You have to help them change their mind. Right. How do you approach that? When I work with clients, and particularly in communication and I work with leaders, I speak about connecting with them on an emotional level. Mm-hmm. And also about speaking about a transformation.

That there's something that you, and this has everything to do with your brand. And your brand is who you are, who you serve, and what transformation you offer. And it's, I mean, in a very, very quick phrase, that's what that is. Mm-hmm. But who you are is your personality and your authenticity and your story and your ethos.

Like what? Why should I trust you? And it has more to do with just the letters behind your name. It has everything to do with how I build this relationship. Ha has a lot to do with emotion. But then I think the second piece of that, and also discovering who your audience isn't, what the needs are. But I think one real key is the, that a lot of people miss is the transformation.

What can I offer you and what do I have that can help you solve a problem and get past this barrier? And yes, we can get past that, but what does that look like? And I think that visualization is something that's really key when it comes to the sales process or even persuading or even, you know, we're talking a lot about sales, but I think even like sitting in, in a board meeting with my business partners and I have something I wanna say about a new line or a new product or a new way that we're gonna go about things.

I, I, I do my research and I develop my advocacy first so I can have some evidence behind what I'm saying. So I can have this credible discussion and say, I don't know if that's the right place to spend our money. What about doing this? So it's becoming much more of an advocate. And, but it has to do with how you build, how you build your position.

And it has to do with your ethos and it has to do with. The results and what happens on the other side of that. I find that many entrepreneurs and many business owners talk a lot about what they do and not about a lot about the other side of what happens if you do this thing. So it's, it's really an interesting space in the speaker space too.

I work with a lot of speakers to be able to position themselves as consultants and to get long-term contracts and Great. Give me a story about what it does. Tell me. Give, help me, help the audience visualize what you're talking about. Don't just tell me the process. Tell me a story about what that created.

I think that's the, there's that storytelling, you know, there's that whole storytelling that's, that was such a big hit of a book quite a few years ago. Yeah. StoryBrand, Donald Miller. StoryBrand by Donald Miller. Yeah. I mean, and, but I think, I think we. We, the general, we forget to do that in our process when we get so stuck in, oh my gosh, my process is the way that we do it, but then we forget to talk about, let me tell you a real life story about that.

So I think that I totally agree with that. And Donald Miller, no relation, but that is it. Yeah. And anytime anybody listening, if you've heard a speech or maybe you've been to a, a lecture like when you were a professor, what do you remember? If there's a story, especially if it has emotion behind it, that's what we do remember.

So yeah, I have my signature story of being muffler mama from all those years ago when I was selling automotive products. But the fact that I went into a muffler shop and installed mufflers with the guys. That wasn't just a story, it represented my commitment to my customers, and then it talked about how I could help them get better results.

And as you said, the stories, the specific stories about what happened, and of course social proof. I don't know if this is considered social proof when you tell the stories of your other customers. But that is huge. Because that's where the visualization comes in. It's just and, you know, I think back to the, my debate days, it's, it, we, you know, some debate goes so fast with all these facts and statistics and, and that's when people are just like, ugh, too much.

But tell me a story about how those all mean. Something fact is not gonna win you a debate or win an argument, but the story of it might. Uh, that's really when you, because it's the emotional connection that really makes a difference. So I think that's the, that's the thing about it too. We think about debate as we're butting heads.

Yeah, maybe we are, but we gotta work. That all engages together, and if both sides are open to having a discussion and creating solutions together, great. Everybody wins. Yeah, it's, it's. It's a lot of fun to be able to work with people in that process. You know, and I think, I love the word that the way that you said fun or the, that you said fun at all, because I think we sometimes do forget or get so in the weeds about all the things that we have to do and think, you know, it's fun to help someone.

I, I talk about this. I've probably, if you've listened to the podcast, you've heard it before, but, um, I still have a letter from one of my first outside sales jobs that my, my buyer sent to my boss saying, Kay is an asset to our company. We don't know what we do without her. So that, how great is that? I still remember that, and it's been, I'm not even gonna tell you how many years ago when you get someone that you could really help and they say, wow, you know, I did this marketing campaign and, and I wanted to follow up and call people and they were calling me or, you know, that's something that's happened too, so, hey, it's, it's fun.

Let's have fun here too. It could be, uh, both. It should be both. Right? Absolutely. And I think we forget that as entrepreneurs too, because as entrepreneurs, especially, a lot of us are solo entrepreneurs, I have a ton of business partnerships because I'm good at, I'm really, I'm good at the communication thing.

I'm not so good at some of the other things, like the marketing thing, you know, like I have other people for that because I have partnerships, because it's, that's such a, an important part of things. But I mean, it's focusing on what your genius is and what you uniquely have to offer to the world. And when you can do that and limit the amount of time you have to do with bookkeeping and marketing and keeping track of numbers, even though that's a really important part of business.

But when you stay in your genius zone, that's when you're gonna have the most fun. And you, we do get stuck in business and yes, we do need to make money, and that's an important part of it. But what if you're doing what you really enjoy doing and making money doing that? And. Delegating the other stuff away.

That's a, that's, that's the kind of freedom we want as entrepreneurs and not all the process is fun, but it's sure fun to be able to create our own solutions and move forward with that. I mean, I spent a lot of years as a college professor and I love teaching because I love creating and I love conversations and I love the interaction and speaking in a classroom.

There was some things I didn't like about being in that structure though, had nothing to do with the other faculty, just that I was limited. And when I stepped outside of that and started going into businesses and corporations and, and really making a difference with them, that's where the magic happens.

When you're living in your genius and you're really making a difference. That's when it's fun. And I think we have to step back from the, all the. Well, I gotta send out my marketing and I gotta plan everything today. We get stuck in that and we forget that it's about relationships, it's about having conversations, have fun with it.

That's what people are gonna be attracted to. That's right. I, I think of the phrase, only do what only you can do. And yes, I have an assistant and I delegate, and sometimes it's hard to do because she might not do it the way I do it. But then again, maybe the way I'm doing it isn't right when it comes to, bookkeeping or emailing or outreach or whatever that might be.

So, yeah. Uh, well, and that, that's vulnerable as a leader and that's a part of communication is being vulnerable and saying, maybe I'm not doing it the way that it could be done. So that's, and that's, I think another reason that people will get kind of nervous about persuading and taking a stance about something is because you might be wrong.

You know, not in my case, but yeah, sometimes. Yeah. It happens a lot to my husband. He's wrong a lot. Yes. No, you're right. It is. And when people are with strong personalities, people that are go-getters leaders, it, it is hard sometimes to admit that you're wrong. But all the biggest successes, I've heard so many leaders who've accomplished so much and they say, I don't wanna be the smartest person in the room.

And you know, those are all different rooms. You know, they're the in charge of the big room, but all those rooms, they don't wanna be the smartest one because that's, they wanna focus on what they're passionate about, which I think this conversation is so fun. I have interviewed a, an age range of women from Gen Z, even younger than millennial.

I have some superstar of young women, and I've also interviewed women in their eighties and that are still so passionate about what they're doing and successful and vibrant. And you know, we talked before we came on, you know, I'm, I'm of the age where I could retire. I just can't even believe that 'cause I don't feel like that at all.

But if you're doing what you love, why wouldn't you wanna keep doing it? And if you have the freedom to not do it all the time too, which is, that's very nice too. But yeah, find, you know, it's the old do what you love and the money will follow, which I think is a little bit of a Pollyanna attitude. Yeah.

But, uh, but there is some truth to that, that, you know, you really be most successful when you enjoy what you're doing. You're making a difference, not just selling stuff, making a difference. I think we all wanna make a difference. That's where the, the lasting impact is. That's the, that for the lasting impact.

I mean, you need the money to live, you need the money to support your family and that's, the money's not always gonna follow. You gotta work to get it. But you do. Yeah. That if you work to a point where you can let go of some of those things that really don't make you all that happy then and you can focus on what you do, then that's, that's a pretty good place to be.

That's not work. Right. And you know, I think of the term hustle cu culture and how that gets such a negative rap, whatever. And I think the hustle is what you do to earn the right to have that conversation. I mean, I remember years ago when I was selling mufflers I would, I literally followed the competitor's delivery truck around so that I could find out who they were selling to.

'cause I knew I could sell them their, you know, my product. I knew I could do a better job because I had me. And so there was some hustle. But then when you get into the situation where you have that right to, to persuade someone, then it's, that's the reward. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's, that's such an important thing.

I mean, you gotta, you gotta give yourself the time. You also gotta, it's a personal investment too. I mean, I think one thing that stood out for me from that comment is the confidence. You had the confidence to do that and. Sometimes, particularly as females, we just need to be not given the permission, but we feel like we need to be given the permission to be able to do that.

And like I think of my business partner in the strategic advisor board, he's a multi, he owns 1919 companies and he very direct in his communication and but also understands that like you do the work and if you stand up for yourself, that that's, that's what you need to do. And so what if somebody disagrees with you?

You know? So it's a, it's not that you need to be given that, but I think as women we kind of feel, I haven't been given that permission, so maybe it's kind of challenging to say, and I maybe it's age, maybe it's, maybe it's experience, maybe it's a, maybe it's a, I don't really care what people think anymore.

I don't know if that's an age or an experience or it's a. Like, yeah, I'm not gonna please everybody, and that's okay. That is okay. Right. You can't, and, and I have multiple examples of women who've been on this podcast who have to claim their right at the table. Uh, Megan Tennell comes to mind. She's the CEO of the, um, association of Equipment Manufacturers.

Huge association, huge trade show. She started as an intern. She's now CEO Along the way, one conversation, I remember she said that someone called, and when she answered the phone, they'd assume that she's the secretary. And one gentleman said, Hey, how are you doing cupcake? And she said I'm fine sweetheart.

How are you? So she fed it right back to them. And, and that gentleman took pause and he said, you know, you're right. For whatever reason we do, we have to claim our, our seat at the table. We have to just acknowledge we have the right to be there just as much as the men. Mm-hmm. So, uh, I, I really think that's a great train of thought.

I wanna close with one more example because it just happened and it's a different situation, but it's a friend of mine whose husband, she's older and he should not be driving, in my opinion, in my strong opinion they have a car, a, a very safe car that, that she hasn't wanted to drive because it's so expensive and, you know, important and whatever.

And I, and she's afraid, oh, I might hurt the car. And I thought of phrase came to mind and I just, it was perfect. I said, you know what, you gotta put your big girl panties on right now. You just gotta do it. And I am so proud of her. She is driving all the time now. She's driving her husband because she put her big girl panties on sometimes.

Yeah. There's, it is not like a magic formula. You just gotta do it. You just gotta do it. Yep. And unfortunately, Nike stole that phrase, but this has been a fantastic conversation. How can listeners learn more about you, connect with you, do business with you, hire you, send flowers to you? I don't know. I'll put it, I would appreciate any or all of those things.

So, uh, yeah. Uh, connected me on LinkedIn, Shelby, Joe Long. That's probably the best. I'm there all the time. Facebook too. Um, I also have a YouTube channel that is, that is, I'm transitioning things over and so it's slowly developing. But I talk all about my core. Framework and introducing constructive disagreement to work cultures and how to get past those things.

I also have a Genius entrepreneur program about how to transform your genius into a product and enter it into the marketplace. So that's so many choices. That's where you can find, yeah, I'll put all of that in the show notes. And, uh, I, I've just, again, thank you so much, Shelby. I really enjoyed this. I appreciate you being on the show.

Thank you for having me. I, as you can tell, I love talking. So, uh, I enjoyed this conversation a lot.

Cool. That was fun. That was fun