Episode 181 | The Secret to Value-Based Selling Success with Lisa Schnare

In this episode, Lisa shares how value-based selling transforms conversations from product pitching to true business partnerships. She explains how to uncover what’s most important to your customer, connect your solutions to their goals, and position yourself as a trusted advisor instead of just another vendor. Lisa also reveals how she uses AI tools to research prospects in seconds, why listening matters more than talking, and how to build confidence in sales development teams.

Listen in to gain actionable strategies to improve prospecting, ask smarter questions, and lead with authenticity. Lisa’s practical, down-to-earth approach shows that great selling isn’t about pushing harder—it’s about understanding your customer’s world and creating measurable value in every interaction.

About Lisa:

With over 15 years of experience in B2B sales, I am a Managing Partner at ValueSelling Associates, a leading global sales training company that offers a practical methodology for selling on value, not price. I am Certified to sell and deliver ValueSelling Framework, Vortex Prospecting, and Account Manager Training, helping reps and managers to excel across the entire revenue funnel. I am passionate about helping SaaS and Services companies build successful lead generation and sales teams, processes, operations, and enablement. My mission is to drive new pipeline within account based sales and marketing strategies, ultimately aiding in the growth and success of every business I work with.

Contact Lisa: LinkedIn

Books Lisa Mentioned: 

Show Me You Care: https://a.co/d/9I3q0GU

Trust Matters: https://a.co/d/9RL7XIN

Check out Kay's Uncopyable Sales Secrets Video Series: https://www.beuncopyable.com/sales-course

Want to be more successful, make more sales and grow your business? If so, you'll love this podcast. In this show, I (Kay Miller, aka "Muffler Mama," interview superstar business women from all industries. Their experience and advice will give you specific tools you can use to crush your goals like those grapes in my favorite "I love Lucy" episode. I earned the nickname “Muffler Mama" when sold more automotive mufflers than anyone in the world. Besides being a #1 Salesperson, I've been a successful entrepreneur for over 30 years. During that time, I (along with my husband, Steve) have generated 8 figures in revenue for our business. Besides hosting this podcast, I'm an author, speaker, coach, consultant and most importantly....Kelly's mom.

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Uncopyable You (Book co-authored with Steve Miller)

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Transcript

Today I'm excited to welcome Lisa Schnare, managing partner at Value Selling Associates with over 15 years in B2B sales. Lisa helps SaaS and service companies build high performing sales teams, processes and enablement.

She helps reps and managers to sell on value, not price, and to drive growth with account-based strategies. Lisa, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much. Kay. That was a great introduction. It doesn't, doesn't sound like much work at all, does it? There you go. I had to cut some out because there's so many wonderful things to say about Lisa, but I don't want you to tune out before we even get started.

Um, we had a lovely conversation before, uh, we started recording and there's so many directions we can go with this conversation. Uh, but I wanna talk as we talked before, at least get started, um, about the value-based concept, which. It is of course, pervasive and common, and we know that intuitively. But as salespeople, as you mentioned, we might have a quota, we might have a number on our head, and all of a sudden we're stressed out and, and you know, we forget that value is the the point.

And we're just excited about our product, what we sell, and we forget that we really have to find out what's important to the customer. So that's kind of where I'd like to start. Um, but let's say, first of all, give me like a two minute your little history and then we'll go into that topic. I love it. Okay.

Uh, a little bit about me. I guess I, right outta college, I got, um, my first sales job, I guess you'd say, was at Enterprise Renta car at the airport. So I was renting cars and selling that rental car insurance that very few people actually need. And that got me interested in not just like sales, but, but explaining sales without having a fear sell.

'cause I hated that I was watching these families, um, get off planes that could barely afford their vacation as it was. And then I was trying to upsell them on insurance that they may or may not need. And so I, that really changed my perspective on sales in, in general and explaining to people what their options are and educating them on those options instead of being, instead of pushing something based on fear.

And so after that, I got a job in, uh, SaaS sales. So the tech startup here that, um, based in Atlanta, Canada, and. Two weeks after I started it got acquired by a tiny little company called salesforce.com. So I went through that acquisition process. That job was a pure sales development rep job. I was the cold caller, I was the meeting booker.

I was working with the Fortune 500. Um, booking those meetings so that my sales rep could have a full pipeline. And I, I don't know, there's probably something essentially wrong with me 'cause I kind of loved it and I got really interested in how you build that whole process from the ground up. So after I stuck around for a little while after the acquisition was kind of fully rolled out, but then I.

Followed a few of the sales leaders to another startup, and then another startup, and then another startup. And it was great because I, I didn't even need a, a resume at the time. People were kind of poaching me out of jobs, but I got to build that function from the ground up over and over and over again, and I got to try different things.

And I, I loved that it was a grind. It was hard, but it was also getting to understand product market fit, getting to understand your audience and their needs and the value. And I was trained in value selling while I was running a sales development team for a tech startup in 2018. And I fell, fell in love with the value selling framework because it's very simple, very powerful.

And it very quickly pointed out to us the conversation we were not having. Which was the value conversation. We were talking about problems. We were talking about solution, which is of course our features, functionality and everything. We love to pitch. We were skipping right over value and trying to close, and we realized we were not talking about the impact, the measurable success metrics around solving problems.

And so when we started having that conversation, it was transformational on our pipeline. And so it kind of stuck with me. And then in 2020, like so many others, unfortunately I was on the end of COVID related layoffs. I was a mid-level manager at another tech startup. And, uh, so I found myself without a job.

And I, I actually, this is kind of a fun story. I did a LinkedIn post about that, how it felt. I was kind of vulnerable. I said, you know, it's happening to so many, and I do realize that it's not personal, but it was still a kick in the teeth, especially in sales, when you know exactly how much you're worth to a company and.

So people really responded to that. And that post got over 83,000 views. I got, within two weeks I had 45 calls with different people. I had to start a spreadsheet 'cause I didn't have a CRM anymore. And so I started taking calls and having conversations and like that was my heartwarming experience with my LinkedIn network and how important that network can be to help you build something.

I start, I decided to start my own consulting company called Impulsion Sales Consulting. And I started working with companies the same way I had been doing in-house except as a consultant. So I got to help build sales, sales development teams, enablement, operations, all of those things for with start startups and founders.

And about a year into running my own consulting company, the value selling team reached out and said, Hey, would you like to get certified to sell and facilitate value selling training and join the team? And I was like, yeah, let's do it. So now here we are four and a half years later, and I've been, uh, working with the value selling team and running my own consulting company training.

As you mentioned in your, your wonderful intro, I train all revenue teams. So it's not just sales, it's SDRs, customer success, revenue teams, uh, in general and oftentimes leadership as well go through sales training. So, uh, now I get to work with all kinds of people in all, all kinds of industries. So. Tying right into your question about value-based selling.

So value selling is actually a brand as well as a type of selling. So if you look up value selling associates, you'll see that that's, that's the sales training I'm mentioning. But value-based selling in general is based on the fact that we want to not just walk in the door and pitch people on what we do, and this is how much it is.

What we wanna do is understand what are their priorities, what are they focused on, and then if we can connect what we do to helping them to achieve those goals, then we're building value from the customer perspective. And you hit it right on the head, Kay, when you said, we are excited about what we do, we're excited about our product.

Like hopefully, I hope all of you in sales are passionate about what you sell. Uh, 'cause guess what? People can tell if you're not. Um, but we want to walk in the door and tell everyone why we're so awesome. With value-based selling, you need to practice building the muscle of asking more questions instead of coming in and saying, this is what you need and why and why it's awesome.

Uh, actually connecting to their business, their business objectives, those, those critical business priorities. And then attaching what you do to help them to partner with them. Go beyond just, I'm a vendor. Go to, I'm a partner in your business that's gonna help you to achieve your goals and this is how.

And then you get into talking about how you're gonna help them do it. Wow. I've taken some notes here. I'm sorry. That was a lot. That was great. No, that's really good stuff. It was all really good stuff. Uh, but here are some of the notes I took. I started out selling super boring pro uh, products, muffler and catalytic converters.

Nice. I, I had no interest in, I had no knowledge about, and in my sales book, I talk about how I went into a muffler shop and, and installed a muffler to understand that. But what really came to, uh, the insight, I guess, that came to me through that is. Is what you're talking about. How can I help those customers?

A lot of times I sold through distribution, but I pulled the, the demand through to the muffler shops and, and these are family owned businesses. These are businesses who earn money to put food on the table, to go on vacations, to hopefully send their kids to college. So I think the product or service, uh, doesn't always have to be exciting.

But I mean, my, I told you my daughter, she played golf her whole career. She went to college and played golf, and now she's in the golf industry. And I tell her, you're so lucky you, uh, get to work in the industry that, that you love. But not everyone is quite so lucky. But there are always aspects, uh, to being able to help people.

So, uh, I like, uh, what you're talking about, about getting to the value. And as we talked about before, I feel like sales is so intuitive, it's different for everyone. I'd like to ask you an example of some questions that you would ask to get to find out what is valuable to the customer. And we both said we're not fond of that phrase.

What keeps you up at night? Because no matter how worried I am, I seem to sleep through the night. So how, how would you, how would you talk to a customer to find out those, uh, goals and what, how can, how you can help them? I love this, and I would say right off the bat, another thing we were talking about before we hit record was ai.

And one of the reasons that I don't like the walk in and ask what keeps you up at night anymore is that you can now do research in 30 seconds to find that out, or at least narrow down what that answer is. So I want everyone to try this as they're listening to this podcast. I want you to pick an account or someone that you sell to go into your AI tool of choice, Gemini Choppy, GBT, co-pilot, whatever, and say for this role, insert their title in this industry, insert industry.

What would be their top priority for 2025 and going into 2026. And I want you to read what it gives you back, because that is the quickest, simplest summary of information to put yourself in the shoes of your customer that you can do now and, and now it takes not even 30 seconds sometimes to do that. So then I can start to craft questions that come from a place of understanding, empathy, and credibility.

So a lot of people ask me, especially SDRs, they're, they're often young or early in their career and they need to build credibility really quickly. So they're asking me all the time, how do I do that? I, I don't have a network, I don't have this, you know, fantastic resume yet. And uh, and I say, well, do your research preparation.

Give your prospect or customer the respect of doing a bit of research before you take up their valuable time. It goes such a long way. And then I can go into the conversation and say. Other customers that I talked to are based on a little bit of research that I did on your industry and your priorities.

I'm wondering if you're concerned about this, how does that affect affecting your business? Um, and that could be economic factors, market factors, if you're selling to somebody who has to rely on a supply chain or logistics, you know, those types of things can help uncover exactly what it should be.

Keeping that person up at night. And then if you're off base and they say, no, we've got that covered, guess what? It's a perfect opportunity to be like, oh yeah, how are you doing that? I think silence is golden is something that we need to remember because you're right, AI has given us an incredible op opportunity.

I've been in sales, I don't even like to say this for 40 years and never have I had the opportunity to have a tool like this. My podcast guests like you, I just say, who is Lisa Schnare? And you know, like you said, 10 seconds later, I know all about you. You can ask about your customers, your everything that you mentioned, and I, I know you teach some ai.

I did a program, AI simplified for sales and marketing. If you're not using this tool, if you're afraid of it or you think it's. Too much of a hassle or whatever. You, you've got to, to, if you want a competitive advantage, if you wanna sell, you need to use that tool. So yes, that is a great way to be able to guess what their problems are.

Um, I just read, reread a book by Chris Voss called, never Split the Difference on Negotiating. I'm sure you're familiar with it. Mm-hmm. Yep. And silence is so powerful. Even in negotiations, someone has an objection. You're so tempted to come back with all the reasons that that shouldn't be an objection or, or why you can, you know, whatever, justify that.

But a lot of times you just need to listen. Well, why do you say that? I loved that. Why do you say that? Tell me more. You can ask another question. So those are all good. But the a, the AI factor is really great, um, for your SDRs. I ki I've never been in SDR, that's a sales. Development development representative, and they're the frontline.

They're the ones that have to do all the, really the grunt work, kind of to prepare that prospect for the account executives. So, so what, how do you, you know, I mean, I know you talked about how you can start this with research. What else do you tell them to just be able to get on the phone, pick up the phone and call someone that they've never talked to?

Yeah, and, and, yeah. So for SDR teams that are tasked with this, their quota looks a little different, right? Their quota is typically based on how many meetings can you book for your AE to then qualify. There are still a couple of teams out there that do discovery themselves, but for the most part, I'm seeing that SDR teams are focused on simply getting that meeting on the books.

However, they still want it to be a qualified meeting. You can't just book a meeting with your Aunt Isadora and be like, Hey, yeah, yay, I got to quota. Um, so you, first of all, again, with all the tools that are available in the tech stack that they have, the preparation is key. But part of the reason it's key is because it also leads to confidence.

And one of the hardest parts around cold prospecting is of course, that rejection that you're scared of. You're worried that you're, you're bothering somebody. And right now the industry. Standard is that people pick up the phone about 12% of the time. So connect rates to a human is on average about 12% right now.

So that means every a hundred calls you should be speaking to a human 12 times. So for the most part, you're gonna get really good at leaving voicemails. And remember, folks, voicemail has changed just while I mention that. I will say voicemails are often delivered now via text message or email. So, but I never, I never listen to voicemail.

I don't pick up my phone unless I recognize the caller and I never listen to voicemails. Thank goodness that's everything's transcribed. So That's right. So it's not that you're ignoring them, you're reading them. So I, I hear sometimes from people that it's not worth it to leave them. It is because they are being transcribed.

Not to mention you're running a business, you are still gonna check that voicemail to make sure it's not a lead or a customer calling from a number you didn't recognize. So, uh, so, or at least I hope so. Okay. Because it could be a lead. Yeah, that's true. If I see a voicemail, that's a good point. If I see a transcript, I would definitely at least breeze through it.

And, and I don't get that many. Um, I, I just, I'm gonna interject that, uh, one thing that's really worked for my, my customers and my moose are not really companies that have STRs. They're really more small businesses that don't have all of that infrastructure. But one thing that's worked really well is to follow up with an email that says.

I'm following up on my call. That extra effort mm-hmm. Has been really magic. So, and I love that you mentioned that because one of the things I was going to mention for anyone who's doing, even if it's small business and you're doing more so like warm, warm referral type prospecting or like what I, what I personally call kind of shaking the trees, which is my network.

I'm not cold prospecting really that much. I'm going out to my network and asking for introductions or asking for referrals or asking for reviews or testimonials. It's a slightly different kind of prospecting than the cold, cold prospecting. But what you just mentioned, following up with an email, there are statistics from gong.io if you haven't heard of Gong.

It's a call recording software that has now emerged into an AI revenue optimization software. They've, they've really grown up in the last, like 10 years. Um, but Gong, one of the things I love about Gong is that they release a lot of. Reports research based on the thousands and thousands of calls that get made through their software every day.

And that research, those statistics are free. And one of the statistics that I like that ties to what you said is that you are five times, I think it was three or five times more likely to get a response if you combine calls with emails. So when people ask me, which works better, I have to say both. It's a combination.

Where does your buyer want to be contacted? That would be my first question, is that going back to one of the things you write about extensively is like understanding your audience, knowing your moose, and where do they want to be sold to? Where are they spending their time and attention, and how can you insert yourself, um, into a place they're already spending time.

So understanding that's gonna help you too. But it is a combination that helps us kind of surround our prospect and we're, we're priming memory. We're trying to get to the point where we're earning mind share through multiple little breadcrumbs that we leave around our prospect. So that is not just always a cold call or a cold email.

It could also be sharing something with them. Here's an article I thought you might find interesting. It's based in your industry, it's based on your customers. You know, something that's gonna actually get their attention. That's a. Give instead of always an ask. And that's something we call value-based interruptions.

So a value-based interruption as part of a prospecting cadence would be that give, instead of just constantly being like, please take a meeting with me. Please take a meeting with me. I love that. I have to say, the one thing I tell people to never say when they're following up is, I'm just following up.

Oh, oh God. That needs to die. That needs to die. Along with, what was the other thing that we said needs to die? Oh, I guess we already talked about it. What keeps you up at night? That's just right. Getting too dated. Yeah. Resources now with AI, that is so easy to do and a resource can also be, Hey, here's what happened with a customer that, that you know, I'm working with and here are their results.

That's so powerful. But I agree. Every time you follow up, and hopefully you are following up. Customers, smaller businesses don't even always have CRMs and salespeople are notorious for dropping the ball. Mm-hmm. And only following up once or twice. So anytime you can provide value or maybe refer back to your conversation.

Okay. You know, I thought of you because we talked about this. And, and we, we, I mentioned sales is so intuitive. Everyone sells differently. Everyone buys differently. So don't get too hung up on, you've gotta use these exact phrases, uh, you know, be you. And I told you I'm, I'm kind of a goofball. I've made some really big mistakes and, uh, I love the fact that you talked about before we.

Recorded also on LinkedIn, or maybe you talked about that. You put out, Hey, I'm out of a job. You were vulnerable. And I said that when I go on LinkedIn, everyone's so successful, they're giving all this advice. Here's a carousel on what you should do here. Here's a lengthy post. And no one will say, geez, I just lost this huge sale.

It sucks. So just being real is, goes a long way. That authenticity in this world of ai, which is, you know, there are so many positives, but there are those negatives and authenticity is more important than ever. Actually. That was, uh, we were talking about this before we hit record as well, but this, this whole book on trust that I was just reading about, that is one thing that, that is emerging from the world of AI is that people are, have a lower level of trust.

And so your authenticity is essential. Um, as you were saying, sales being nuanced. I always say, every time I do a training workshop, I do the same training around value selling. We use the same framework every time, and I say, take what you can from this framework. It is simple, it is flexible, but it needs to sound like you If it's not authentic, it doesn't sound genuine and people can tell.

So yeah, it's the same as like, it's a bit of a struggle when you're onboarding people, uh, particularly again, if you're, you've got cold callers, you, you have to equip them with a script of sorts. But let me tell you, when you're cold on the other end of a cold call, and I'm sure, Kay, you've been on the other end of many of them, oh my gosh, you could spot those a mile away.

I can tell you're reading, so please, you know, learn what you're selling, learn your script, practice it with your mother, your roommates, whoever, so that it sounds natural, authentic, and you actually, um, come across as passionate, uh, about what you, what your solution is. And otherwise, it, it's, it comes over in your tone so quickly.

It does and, and yes, we want to deal with real people. I've used ai, uh, pretty consistently since it really hit the big time, but I am really starting to be very good at reading a telling when someone's using ai. Including myself. There's the rule of three, which is very, you know, this, this, and this. You know, you always, you, a rule of three is very powerful in so many things.

Comedy, everything. But AI just has these patterns. Uh, the, the funniest one I think is the emails that I hope this finds you well. This email finds you well. There are some big triggers and one thing that's happened to me, I'm sure to you too, the more I use ai, the more it does learn what I talk like.

Mm-hmm. But I never, I never send something out that's AI without edits. It's so much easier to have AI help that, to just look at something that's blank piece of paper. I'm actually finding more and more that I don't choose the AI version for research, though. It's killer. It is totally killer for content.

I, I mean, I, I take the transcripts of my podcast interviews like this one, and I have AI create a newsletter. Um, nice to get people to want to, to watch the podcast or listen to the podcast, either one. But, uh, really it, it's bidding out things that I don't like more and more. So yeah, just be careful. Buyer beware.

Buyer beware. Yeah. What, what is something that I'll just ask you, you know, what would you like to kind of, what would you like to talk about? What do you see as a big problem that you help your clients and customers with? Well, there's a loaded question. No pressure. Put you on the hot seat. Let's just take on the world's problem.

Um, no, it's, um, um, it's a great one. Let's, let's just say like common themes and, and this is worldwide, is that, uh, we were talking briefly about objection handling, and I had mentioned also just at the top when I was describing value-based selling, kind of building the muscle around, um, active listening, asking questions instead of diving into a pitch.

And so the Art of Silence, um, it actually is the name of a book. You should all read it. I can't think of the author right now, but it's fantastic. Um, but I'll put it in the show notes. I'll, I'll look it up. And also the, the one that you mentioned on trust, I'll put those in the show notes. Yes, yes. Trust matters.

David Segger. Yeah, you should check him out as well. Very cool stats. Uh, some of them are kind of depressing, but, um, but yeah, going back to a couple of things. So in. Objection handling, negotiation. You mentioned Chris fos. Great book there. And uh, yeah, basically value-based selling. Selling on value, thinking about what your customer cares about, walking into conversations, putting yourself in their shoes and how can you do that.

And we'd mentioned, yes, ai, fantastic tool for this. Another tip I used to give people is like Google job descriptions of the person that you're selling to, because then I love that. I love that you're gonna get an outline. I want you to emphasize that. Google the job description of the person you're calling on, you can get an idea of what their responsibilities are.

That's genius. A hundred percent. And, and I mean, you, you can use AI for that too now. And so that gives you an idea what are they measured on and who potentially even who they're reporting to, um, and specific technologies that they need to be able to use. You can glean a lot of information from a job posting.

So it's, um, it's a great way to do that. Now I have had teams come back to me and be like, why are SDRs all Googling new jobs? Are they all leaving? I'm like, no, they're doing research. So it is kind of a funny thing to catch somebody doing is looking up job descriptions, right? Yeah. Really. Are you and you were on your way out looking for something better?

Exactly. But I would say, yeah, if, if there's something actionable that I can say that I help people with a lot is listen, listen to respond or don't listen to respond. Listen to actually listen. Like, um, what are they saying? What are they concerned about? Have enough preparation done in advance of a call that you've got some really good questions kind of.

Prompted ready to go so you're not reading from a script. It's like cue cards. So if they say this, I wanna make sure I mention this. If they don't say this, I wanna make sure I mention it. I wanna ask about that, you know, and, and prepare yourself so that you're going in confident enough that you can have a conversation.

Take a breath with objection handling. You, you had said it earlier, like the knee jerk reaction is, I need to overcome that objection. We actually call it objection handling. It's like, I have to handle this. Okay. How about you be genuinely curious about where that's coming from. What is the motivation behind that objection?

And if you can ask questions in, like, we talked about authenticity. If you're genuinely curious, why, you know, like, okay, why are you concerned about that? Um, or like, has that, has that come up before? Is that something that's burned you before? You know, people are living with a lot of trauma guys, so you never know where these objections are coming from and if you're genuinely interested, um, that comes across too.

So I think, you know, a lot of people feel like their problems across industries in revenue facing teams, people feel like their problems are unique. And yet I'm noticing those are the trends across all of them is like, we're not taking the time to properly prepare, understand how our customers feel.

Think about your customer's customers, because that's what your customer's thinking about is, you know, so take it that step further if you had their job, what's going on in their customer's world, um, because that's impacting how they sell. So, you know, those are, those are just, you know, things that are rooted in curiosity that, I mean, I can tell you this too, if you can tap into what's actually interesting to you about go to market strategies and how business works and how that person works, sales no longer is work it because it interests you.

So it's not a grind anymore. It's like I get, I get to do this. I'm privileged to learn about this industry that I don't usually work with. And if you can tap into that, it can help you avoid some of the traditional burnout that you get from doing the same sales motions over and over and over, and feeling like you're on a, a loop just pitching your product every day, all day.

That's, that's true. If you have something that you can help somebody with, uh, we like to help people, you know, I know you're involved in can, uh, you're doing cancer rides every year to help people with cancer. Uh, you do mentoring. We all like to make a difference and make an impact, and I think that we kind of take that hat off and then we go into sales and we forget.

We're like, we gotta sell this product. We're humans, as you said. So all of the things that, that matter to us. They go across our whole lives. We're, you know, we're people who, with problems that we don't like to share very often we like to brag about everything going right. Yeah. But yes, I think all of the, what you said is so valid.

You've shared so many fantastic pieces of information. I honestly could keep going on and on, but I do like to keep my podcast at 30 minutes, and we're pretty much outta time. So let's end by having you tell people where they can get ahold of you to learn more about your services. Yeah, I'm honestly, LinkedIn is the best way to get in touch with me.

Make sure you include a note in your connection request. Please mention that you heard the podcast or that you know Kay mentioning mutual connections. I'll leave you with one more actionable tip if you're going to reach out to people who are mutual connections. So those second and third degree connections that you have on LinkedIn, make sure you mention, Hey, I see we have some mutual connections.

I'd love to add you to my network. That goes a long way in, in building some credibility on LinkedIn as well. And so if you could wanna find me on LinkedIn, I'm Lisa Schnare. I've got, you know, like I look like this in my LinkedIn picture if you're watching on the video. Uh, but if you include a little note, I'm, I'm always happy to connect and, and yeah, you mentioned.

My, I do, it's near and dear to my heart to mentor people. I do, I my ride for cancer as well. And right now I am offering some consulting, um, coaching and mentoring in return for a donation to the cause. And, uh, and that's partly because we, we talked about this offline as well, but like, I do truly believe in leaving everyone and everything better than I found it.

And rising tides lift all boats. I, I really feel like putting some of this out in the world and helping in particular other women, but men too. I, I just feel like it all comes back tenfold and that has proven itself to me over and over and over again. I have never regretted helping people to, to achieve the next level in their career, in their life.

So, um, that is, that is definitely my mission statement and I'm happy to connect with and help with whatever I can. So now we know, uh, a fair amount about your personal brand, which is something else we don't have time to talk about. I, we have a book and copyable you Yes. Which is all about that. Uh, knowing what's really important to you, telling your customers.

Don't, don't let them guess. Tell them you just told all of us on your podcast or on this podcast interview. Lisa, thank you so much for the insights, uh, your perspective and also the specifics. That's what I'm looking for and you delivered. So Lisa, I just wanna say it's been a pleasure and thank you so much for being on the show.

It has been a pleasure for me too, Kay and that that was my goal. Deliver some actionable insight for your audience, and I hope they, I hope they take action on it and see wild success.